Trench mortars myth?

[Desmond7]

Many authors/historians have made the point that soldiers who were 'odds'n'sods' tended to be posted to brigade TM batterys ... in many books (I won't name them) it is hinted that those sent to the TMs were unwanted in infantry platoons/new boys/clots etc.

I've been reading up and the other night I was reading about one man who was delighted to end up in 109 Brig. TM battery.

The reasons ... 1. VC won by E. N. F. Bell ... and the resulting sense of pride. 2. Many men wounded in major actions .. such as July 1 .. could find themselves returned to a Btn. drastically different from the one they left ... returnees often ended up in TMs????

Finally, he MAINTAINS that they were definitely known as SUICIDE CLUB (as well as MGs) because German artillery was so often directed onto them. To them it was a badge of honour and they KNEW that riflemen were not exactly happy with them.

So, are the TM's getting a 'bum deal' from historians?

Discuss.

Des

[armourersergeant]

Des,

I too have read, i think on this forum the tale that those that went were the left overs etc, but it strikes me as a specialsit type of job, so it may have needed a better type of chap.

Was there more money in it for those that served?

regards

Arm.

[Desmond7]

Jim Donaghy - 10th Royal Inniskillings. Talking of experiences pre-Messines. He had been wounded on July 1, hospital and then 'messed about' until returned to his old btn. which was drastically changed.

'A week before the attck I was transferred to the 109th TMB as they were in need of NCOs. I was given a bit of instruction on the use of the gun. It was simple to operate. You dropped the mortar into the barrel and it hit the bottom. This detonated anexplosive charge - a bit like a 12 bore cartridge and this propelled the mortar. A good gun team could have seven shells in the air before the first one hit the ground.

'They were ideal for hitting the German trenches and machine gun posts.

'We came up and did our strafe nearly every afternoon. We varied the time and would blarge off up to 1000 rounds at times. We weren't too popular sometimes as the men manning the trenches beside us knew that there wasa good chance the Germans would retaliate - but we didn't care.'

Des

[Paul Reed]

I have no idea where this has started, but it cannot be true. TMBs employed specialist men in the same way MGC did. When they chose men for the TMBs they were looking for technically minded men who could think on their feet: NCO class. Duds and rejects were no good to such a cutting edge, in terms of tactics and technology, unit. Sadly I fear many modern authors are not going back to original documentation, but relying on one account written years afterwards, or putting their own angle on it - particularly if they are ex-military. While a knowledge of the military and how it works is undoubtedly useful, it seems some writers (I hasten to call them historians) think that service in the modern military equips them to describe WW1: in most cases it doesn't, and to the historian used to working in primary sources this comes across very strongly.

[Desmond7]

To add to what Paul has said:-

Just in terms of human nature, I would argue that the men chosen for such a unit would have to be of a high calibre in terms of devotion to duty, proven bravery?

I think the old TMs have been wrongly labelled as 'misfits'.

If anyone would like to hear more of Donaghy's accounts, post here and I'll key them in.

Des

[ianw]

I have no doubt they were often unpopular if operating from a trench bay near you - since they would b-----r off and leave the permanent residents to take any German response. This unpopularity might well have led to them being described as misfits and in other disparaging ways.

No doubt that they could have a major impact due to the massive weight of fire that they could quickly put down - so even more unpopular with the Germans !

[KONDOA]

Many TM units were formed from the breakup and reorganisation of RFA units in 1916.

Similarly I am aware of previously wounded RGA men being returned into HTM units where their experience as gunners was needed.

I think it is a myth perpetrated as with any form of rivallry be it football or warfare.

Roop

[Paul Reed]

Many TM units were formed from the breakup and reorganisation of RFA units in 1916.

That's true with divisional level TMBs - they were all RA personnel.

However, at Brigade level the men were all attached from the infantry units in that Brigade.

I would agree with Ian that they were undoubtedly unpopular with the infantry in quiet sectors when they would come along to a TM bay, fire off some rounds, and then move back to a cushy dugout - long before a reply from Fritz arrived! However, in battle these men supported infantry often under unfavourable conditions, and paid the price. The TMB units in 29th Division who supported the attemtped advance on Hawthorn Ridge, for example, suffered appalling casualties on 1st July 1916. At one stage they had teams ahead of the main infantry advance laying down a screen of bombs. Misfits and poor troops would not have been in a position to do work like this: do I must concur with Des, that they have been poorly treated by historians.

[Ali Hollington]

I'm reading the 56th Division history at the moment and in the section on the fighting at Cambrai 1917 it mentions two OR members of the Trench mortars section, my point being OR's are normally only mentioned for great deeds so I've taken it that these men where held in high esteem.

Might be jumping to conclusions.

Ali