Truce Photograph: 1916 or 1918?, Lannaiyab or Sannaiyat?

[emrezmen]

The following photo is from IWM Collection. The caption says "Officers of No. 30 Squadron RFC negotiating an armistice with Turkish officers in No Man's Land at Lannaiyab. Left to right: two Turkish officers; Captain Hudson; unknown British officer; Major J. R. McCrindle."

 

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205314595

 

According to the site, it was taken sometime in 1918. Is this date correct?

 

An entry in the war diary of GHQ dated 1st Nov 1918 says "two Turkish officers met 7th and 11th Cavalry Brigades." But according to the site, the British officers were from RFC and the place was Lannaiyab.

 

Was this photo taken in November 1918 or during one of the two truces held in January 1916 and May 1916? And where is "Lannaiyab?" I've never heard such place name in Iraq. Could it be "Sannaiyat?"

 

 

Edited 30 January , 2021 by emrezmen

[seaJane]

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/No._30_Squadron_RAF#First_World_War gives this:

 

"On 24 August, the half-flight was formally attached to No. 30 Squadron RFC, which referred to it as "B" Flight. The rest of 30 Sqn relocated to Iraq in April 1916. In April the squadron carried out one of the earliest air supply mission when it air-dropped food and other supplies to the garrison at Kut which was besieged by the Turks.

 

After breaking out, Allied forces met with stiff opposition outside Baghdad, and were forced back to Kut on 4 December [1915, sJ], where they were again besieged. Ottoman forces eventually broke through and nine AFC ground staff became prisoners of war. Like the rest of the Allied POWs, they endured a punishing forced march to Turkey and only four of them survived captivity."

 

I think the photograph has to be 1916, and I agree that Sannaiyat should be the place. I can envisage the older handwriting that made a slanted script L look like a S, and closed the loop on a slanted t to make it look like a cursive s.

 

 

Edited 30 January , 2021 by seaJane

[PRC]

There is a Medal Index Card held at the UK National Archive for a Major John Ralph McCrindle He was initially Gordon Highlanders attached Royal Flying Corps as a Second Lieutenant when he first entered a Theatre of War on the 15th May 1915. Confusingly the card shows the Theatre as “Belgium & Egypt”.

It shows him with No.6 Squadron, R.F.C., No. 30 Squadron R.F.C. and finishing the war in command of No.1 Squadron, R.A.F.

 

The IWM note the truce picture as being part of the collection of Group Captain Smallwood H. St Clair. The same collection has a group shot of the officers of No.30 Squadron R.F.C., which includes a Major J.R. McCrindle.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205314594

 

I’m struggling to find a reference to him in the London Gazette where commissioning and promotion would normally be stated – I was looking to find out when he became a Major to see if that ruled out 1916.

 

The December 1916 Monthly Army List shows him as a Captain temporarily since the 9th May 1916 while Flight Commander, R.F.C. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123871339

 

On the March 1917 Monthly Army List he is still shown as a temporary Captain, but he is also shown as having been awarded the Military Cross.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119998243

For his M.C. to appear in the Army List it must have officially appeared in the London Gazette, and so he would be entitled to wear the appropriate ribbon – but that seems to be absent from the man in both photographs.

 

The reference to the Royal Flying Corps would also appear misleading – the Royal Air Force had been in existence for over six months if the picture was of the truce in 1918.

 

It’s difficult to make out from the group picture but I think John McCrindle was still a Captain at the time the picture was taken, even though the owner has captioned him as a Major. If that is correct then the captioning shouldn’t be assumed to be correct.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[helpjpl]

John Ronald McCrindle

 

a)  44.  - Squadron Commander, with, the rank of Major, John Ronald McCrindle, R.A.F. (O.B.E., Military Division).  "Won the Cross during the relief of Kut.  Son of J. R. Ronald McCrindle, M.D.

http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Members/who19_08.htm

 

b)  London Gazette 22 December 1916 - page 12556:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29876/supplement/1

 

c)  airhistory:

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/files/names_combined_M.txt

 

d)  Royal Aero Club Aviators Certificates (from ancestry):

 

e)   Oxford DNB:

https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-47883

 

f)  1932 -  National Portrait Gallery:

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp100052/john-ronald-mccrindle

 

Incorrectly named as John Ralph McCrindle on MIC (ancestry):

 

JP

Edited 31 January , 2021 by helpjpl
to add MIC

[Guest]

Mate,

 

I believe its of the surrender in Nov 1918. My copy of the Offical History disc wont work so the full details escape me?

 

The last commander of the 6th Army

 

Ali Ihsan Pasha (Sabis)     staff 3rd Army 1914 & deputy 11th Corps & 1st Expeditionary Force 6-15 & 9th Corps & 13th Corps Feb 1916 to 1917) 4th Corps 1-17 & CO 6th Army (from Halil) 6-18 to 11-18     LtCol to Col to Maj Gen        born Istanbul 1882 - died Istanbul 1957 1317-Top. Artillery 1 graduated in 1904 to Maj 1911 staff officer Balkan Wars to LtCol 1914 to Col 1915 captured Kermanshah on July 2 and took Hamadan on August 10 1916 to Maj Gen 1917 Mesopotamia disbandment the 6th Army command of the First Army in the War of Independence 1921-22 elected to the Parliament 1954
 

He sent these officers as he didn't wont to surrender to the British (or so I understand) (a bit like Cornwallis at Yorktown)

 

the officers were possibly

 

Cevat Naim Efendi or Naim Cevad Bey    Staff 6th Army Chief of Camp de aides of 6th Army    Capt to Staff Major
and 

Kara Saffet Efendi    Staff 6th Army   Staff  Capt

But I surpose you should have more on this then me.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 31 January , 2021 by stevebecker

[emrezmen]

Thank you all for taking time to reply.  

 

I tend to think that the photo was taken on 22/23 January 1916. It had rained on 20/21 Jan and the ground and their boots look muddy. If my assertion is correct, the British officer in the center must be Temp. Brigadier Gen. James Archibald Douglas. There is no reference to him in British sources (OH, war diaries, and several other publishings) but his name's mentioned in Turkish OH several times. London Gazette has this:

 

Is there any more details on him?

 

War diary of 7th (Meerut) Division (22 Jan 1916, 10 am):

 

17 hours ago, stevebecker said:

I believe its of the surrender in Nov 1918. My copy of the Offical History disc wont work so the full details escape me?

 

It's possible but I try to mark every place name (especially the obscure ones) on Google Earth and have never seen a place called "Lannaiyab." The meeting took place in Nov 1918 was near Hamam Ali.

 

17 hours ago, stevebecker said:

the officers were possibly

 

Cevat Naim Efendi or Naim Cevad Bey    Staff 6th Army Chief of Camp de aides of 6th Army    Capt to Staff Major
and 

Kara Saffet Efendi    Staff 6th Army   Staff  Capt

One thing is for sure, Naim Cevat is not in the picture. There are lots of photos of him to compare. The officer next to the British officer is probably Lt-Col. Abbas Hilmi, CO of the 37th Regiment.

Edited 1 February , 2021 by emrezmen

[PRC]

32 minutes ago, emrezmen said:

If my assertion is correct, the British officer in the center must be Temp. Brigadier Gen. James Archibald Douglas. There is no reference to him in British sources (OH, war diaries, and several other publishings) but his name's mentioned in Turkish OH several times.

 

If you mean the officer at the front in the lighter coloured uniform, then he has the wings for member of the Royal Flying Corps - if the picture was taken in 1916 - or the Royal Air Force if it was taken in 1918. Unfortunately the only difference is the letters in the middle which simply aren't visible.

 

(Image courtesy of the RAF Museum)

 

The image is captioned that he is Major J.R. McCrindle of 30 Squadron, it comes from the collection of another officer of 30 Squadron, and that collection includes a group shot of officers of the Squadron which also includes Major J. R. McCrindle.

 

There is a question mark over when he became a Major, but that may not be relevant as the picture owner may have only added the details later on - several people in the group shot are listed as not known. If the picture was taken in 1916 McCrindle was most likely a Temporary Captain.

 

So if you mean Brigadier Douglas was one of the officers at the back, if it was a negotiation of a truce then I would have thought he'd hardly be likely to be letting a Captain \ Major lead the negotiations and take the glory.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

[helpjpl]

James Archibald Douglas

 

1.  Obituary - The Australasian 14 May 1932:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/142426072?searchTerm=James%20Archibald%20Douglas

 

2.  findagrave:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/70155744/james-archibald-douglas

 

3.  Marriage (06 October 1913 to Kathleen Maggie Fitzgerald) - The Australasian 22 November 1913:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143300803?searchTerm=Sir%20Thomas%20Naghten%20Fitzgerald

 

4.  Portraits 1922 - NPG:

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp77137/james-archibald-douglas

 

5. http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/James_Archibald_Douglas2.html#.YBg8XCMS9EJ

According to the above link there are more photos. Here is the first mentioned, from alamy:

1898, in a Group portrait of Staff of Army Head Quarters, India: Captain James Archibald DOUGLAS, 2nd Bengal Lancers, Deputy Assistant Quarter Master General, Intelligence Branch.

https://www.alamy.com/a-group-portrait-of-staff-of-army-head-quarters-india-douglas-collection-miscellaneous-portraits-and-views-1898-photograph-source-photo-110631-author-unknown-image226875625.html

 

JP

[Guest]

Emrez,

 

Mate you could be right, but the 37th Regt was last seen in the 14th Division after the the 52nd Div was disbanded around Dec 1917, when most of the Division was destroyed at the 2nd Ramadiye (Ramadi) 21/24-9-17 (force 3600 men 10 guns under Ahmed Bey captured & destroyed) .

 

I loose most of the 52nd Div around then and accounts in May 1918 of the 14th Div fail to mention the remains of the 52nd Div in there Division, only the remains of the 51st Div who also were sent there.

 

So Abbas Hilmi Bey (he is recorded as Abbas Bey LtCol) must of gone some where else by Nov 1918?

 

Was he on Staff at 6th Army HQ?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[emrezmen]

On 01/02/2021 at 17:58, PRC said:

 

If you mean the officer at the front in the lighter coloured uniform, then he has the wings for member of the Royal Flying Corps - if the picture was taken in 1916 - or the Royal Air Force if it was taken in 1918. Unfortunately the only difference is the letters in the middle which simply aren't visible.

 

(Image courtesy of the RAF Museum)

 

The image is captioned that he is Major J.R. McCrindle of 30 Squadron, it comes from the collection of another officer of 30 Squadron, and that collection includes a group shot of officers of the Squadron which also includes Major J. R. McCrindle.

 

There is a question mark over when he became a Major, but that may not be relevant as the picture owner may have only added the details later on - several people in the group shot are listed as not known. If the picture was taken in 1916 McCrindle was most likely a Temporary Captain.

 

So if you mean Brigadier Douglas was one of the officers at the back, if it was a negotiation of a truce then I would have thought he'd hardly be likely to be letting a Captain \ Major lead the negotiations and take the glory.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

Thanks Peter. I was talking about the tallest officer with gorgets. Douglas conducted the neogitations on behalf of Gen. Aylmer. On the Turkish side it was a lieutenant colonel.

 

On 01/02/2021 at 21:36, helpjpl said:

James Archibald Douglas

 

1.  Obituary - The Australasian 14 May 1932:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/142426072?searchTerm=James%20Archibald%20Douglas

 

2.  findagrave:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/70155744/james-archibald-douglas

 

3.  Marriage (06 October 1913 to Kathleen Maggie Fitzgerald) - The Australasian 22 November 1913:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143300803?searchTerm=Sir%20Thomas%20Naghten%20Fitzgerald

 

4.  Portraits 1922 - NPG:

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp77137/james-archibald-douglas

 

5. http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/James_Archibald_Douglas2.html#.YBg8XCMS9EJ

According to the above link there are more photos. Here is the first mentioned, from alamy:

1898, in a Group portrait of Staff of Army Head Quarters, India: Captain James Archibald DOUGLAS, 2nd Bengal Lancers, Deputy Assistant Quarter Master General, Intelligence Branch.

https://www.alamy.com/a-group-portrait-of-staff-of-army-head-quarters-india-douglas-collection-miscellaneous-portraits-and-views-1898-photograph-source-photo-110631-author-unknown-image226875625.html

 

JP

Thanks JP. I guess no detailed information on his military career is available.

 

On 02/02/2021 at 00:34, stevebecker said:

So Abbas Hilmi Bey (he is recorded as Abbas Bey LtCol) must of gone some where else by Nov 1918?

 

Was he on Staff at 6th Army HQ?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

Probably not. At some point he became Deputy commander of 52nd Div.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 February , 2021 by emrezmen

[charlie962]

Captain J R McCrindle (as above) was 30 Squadron in Mesopotamia from late Dec 1915 until 23/12/16 when he left Mespot. So that must bracket the photo date.

 

There was a Capt Frederick Walter Hudson of the Norfolk Regt, born 29/12/1888, who qualified as an Observer with 30 Squadron in Mespot 8/10/16.

 

 

So a 1916 date looks good.

 

Charlie

[emrezmen]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Captain J R McCrindle (as above) was 30 Squadron in Mesopotamia from late Dec 1915 until 23/12/16 when he left Mespot. So that must bracket the photo date.

 

There was a Capt Frederick Walter Hudson of the Norfolk Regt, born 29/12/1888, who qualified as an Observer with 30 Squadron in Mespot 8/10/16.

 

 

So a 1916 date looks good.

 

Charlie

 

Many thanks for that Charlie. It's 1916 then.

 

Again, thanks all who have contributed.

 

Cheers

Emre

[charlie962]

I would also suggest it could be a truce for the exchange of PoWs organised mid 1916,

 

Following the surrender of the Kut Garrison 29/4/16 there was an immediate exchange of over 1000each way at the beginning of May over some 5 days with the Hospital Ship Sikkim running back and forth from Kut to the British lines. I don't think it was this event but the next one that took place August/Sept 1916.

 

Some 300 British/Indian sick still left at Baghdad (some from Kut and some from much earlier, all totally unfit to attempt a march north to Anatolia) were to be exchanged for an equivalent number of Turkish soldiers. Protracted negotiations meant that the British PoWs, having been shipped to Shumran from Baghdad on the Khalifa were then confined on the Turkish steamer Busrah at Shumran for over 3 weeks. Finally agreement was reached and the Busrah steamed down to the Megasis bend where she met HS Sikkim and exchanged prisoners. The Sikkim then headed downriver past Sannayiat and on to Basra where the fortunate men were transferred to HS Varsova, sailed to India and most survived (as far as we know).

 

Anyway the Front line at this time was below Kut, crossed over above Megasis then stretched some distance from Megasis to Sannayiat the Turkish having the left bank and the British the right  along the Tigris, at which point it crossed to the left bank. (Left and right based on looking downstream). The British unit at Sannayiat was 7th Meerut Div and at Megasis was 3rd Lahore Div.

 

30 Squadron had their base at Arab Village below Sannayiat as well as a landing ground some distance south of Megasis.  I am thus making an (intelligent??) guess that RFC officers from Arab Village may have been involved in the part of the truce at Sannayiat on 6/9/16. This would be particularly so if they spoke good French- but I don't know that.  Edit--CRA 7Div says Truce was 4am to 7pm.

 

What do you think ?

 

I have no access to 30 Squadron Diaries but I am looking at Army and Medical Diaries because I am researching the men in this exchange. If I find anything I will let you know.

 

Charlie

 

PS spelling of names may be slightly out as everyone seems to have had their own ideas. Hence why your Title may be correct.

Edited 4 February , 2021 by charlie962

[emrezmen]

Thanks Charlie. That makes perfect sense. I can only assume with limited sources (Turkish war diaries are not available online) that it's either 22 Jan or 6 Sept. Turkish OH has rather more details on the truce took place 22 January 1916.  

 

Please let me know if you find anything.

 

 

 

[charlie962]

20 hours ago, emrezmen said:

Please let me know if you find anything.

I will do...

In the meantime:

The original photo you posted was from a Harold St Clair Smallwood collection. He too was in30 Squadron in 1916 and perhaps took the photo.

 

I cannot see RAF service records for McCringle online but in both Hudson's and Smallwood's it notes Qualified French or Knowledge of French.

 

Hudson (ex Norfolks) and Smallwood (IARO, ex Cavalry) only qualified as Observers RFC in August/October 1916 respectively.

Hudson left Mespot 3/12/16 and Smallwood 10/1/17.

I could not find their dates of arrival but McCringle (ex Gordons) didn't leave Suez until 10/12/15 and left Mesopt23/12/16.  (thanks to airhistory.org for clues)

 

Altogether the timing seems right for the Sept 6th 1916 Truce. In addition it was formally organised several days in advance due to the nature of the exchange, unlike that of January 1916. Given that the truce was official from 4am to 7pm there would have been time for a bit of 'tourism' !

 

Here is a quote from 16 Bde Diary who occupied the Sannaiyat trenches :

HQ 21st Brigade
6th Sept 1916 Sannayiat
There was a suspension of arms for the exchange of prisoners, from 4am to 7pm.  The Hospital Ship Sikkim went up to Magasis about 6.30 am returning about 12.30pm. The enemy officer who answered our flag was a Bulgar from Varna but was serving in the Turkish Army. He was given a copy of our last Reuters, at his own request.

 

Charlie

 

and the name of the Bulgar was..........?

Edited 6 February , 2021 by charlie962

[Guest]

Charlie,

 

Yes I am also interested.

 

Many Ottoman officers came from the Balkan Countries even the Great man him self came from Greece (Salonica), then part of the Ottoman Empire.

 

I did notice that there was no mention of the Sept Truce in the Offical History Vol III which deals with the period?

 

Of cause I may have missed it?

 

S.B

Edited 6 February , 2021 by stevebecker