PENSION CARD - Regimental Number or Pension Reference?

[Matlock1418]

Ralph Edward SMITH

Please can someone explain the annotation Z / S Staffs / 1692 in particular

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3 - with thanks

Seemingly one of a new batch of pension records recently released by WFA/Fold3 - all seeming to relate to rejected pension claims, many having "Z" annotations.

Z / S Staffs / 1692 Is it a Regimental Number when to Z Reserve? [rather looks like it to me Edit: Not now!] - or a later Pension Reference?

[I do know the 48026 relates to the South Staffordshire Regiment for this soldier - There is a 48026 MIC & Medal Roll for this soldier]

 

And what is the 63821?

Rather looks like an alternative [temp/short-lived??] Regtl. No. to me - What do you think?

Is it likely to be found elsewhere and/or be useful in finding more out abut this soldier?  Can anyone find anything - I can't.

[On another similarly annotated card for a man whose service is known in detail the upper/later Regtl. No. was further annotated with a lower/earlier TR number and a Z annotation in the same space on the card]

:-) M

Edited 21 January , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[alf mcm]

The number 63821 appears on the first page of his record on Findmypast.  https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007324194%2f00259&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7324194%2f7%2f259

Can't make out the unit, but it starts 85th ...

 

Regards.

Alf McM

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, alf mcm said:

The number 63821 appears on the first page of his record on Findmypast.  https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007324194%2f00259&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7324194%2f7%2f259

Can't make out the unit, but it starts 85th ...

Thanks Alf,

On Ancestry: Service Record - poorly indexed as 66891 !!! [not 63821 and not 48026 either!] - Doh! My mistake not to also search under his name :-/ 

 

"63821" = could not see/read on his Attestation Form - but is on a Casualty Form - and it also reads "85th Tng Res" [Training Reserve] - Elsewhere in the SR on a Statement of Services it reads "TR/5/63821" = So as was believed; an earlier Regimental No.

Image courtesy of Ancestry - with thanks

 

"Z / S Staffs / 1692" = There is a partial " Staffs / 1692" number on the top of a torn pension rejection from - and then further down more clearly as "Z / St Staffs / 1692" = as a Pension Reference

Image courtesy of Ancestry - with thanks

 

Very many thanks for the steer = Sorted!

:-) M

Edited 21 January , 2021 by Matlock1418
Added images

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Z / S Staffs / 1692

This is the class Z pension reference number

 

In mid/late 1918  mid/late 1919 men who were discharged to the Class Z reserve could still be discharged to the reserve even if they claimed a disability. In this case he was the the 1692nd man in the South Staffs to be discharged to a Class Z pension.

 

Craig

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

This is the class Z pension reference number

 

In mid/late 1918 men who were discharged to the Class Z reserve could still be discharged to the reserve even if they claimed a disability. In this case he was the the 1692nd man in the South Staffs to be discharged to a Class Z pension.

Craig,

I sort of knew it had some link to the Z Reserve, and yet it was on a pension record.  So a reserve number or a pension number? - Which we have sorted.

Thanks for your more detailed explanation.

But it does raise a bit of a further question from your post = "a Class Z Pension" - Was this a special pension or different in some way from that a normal disability pension? Or?

:-) M

Edited 21 January , 2021 by Matlock1418
expand/question

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Craig,

I sort of knew it had some link to the Z Reserve, and yet it was on a pension record.  So a reserve number or a pension number? - Which we have sorted.

Thanks for your more detailed explanation.

But it does raise a bit of a further question from your post = "a Class Z Pension" - Was this a special pension or different in some way from that a normal disability pension? Or?

:-) M

No, it was the same criteria. It was just dealt with (for 4-5 months or so) by a specific section at Chelsea due to the massive numbers being discharged.

 

Craig

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

No, it was the same criteria. It was just dealt with (for 4-5 months or so) by a specific section at Chelsea due to the massive numbers being discharged.

Once again, many thanks for your reply.

I take it that this sheer number of claims, and the discharge to Z Reserve, explains the the 'Z Pensions' having a different Z claim numbering style

I.e. Different from the others [later ones] with their Region No / M[ilitary] & Surname initial / Number style which we see on many other disability pension records [e.g. 3/MA/No. 12345, etc.].

It seems [from other my well known soldier] claims on discharges to the Z Reserve in 1919 were also/still likely to be given a Z claim number.

So definitely seems an on discharge to Z Reserve phenomenon.

:-) M

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Once again, many thanks for your reply.

I take it that this sheer number of claims, and the discharge to Z Reserve, explains the the 'Z Pensions' having a different Z claim numbering style

I.e. Different from the others [later ones] with their Region No / M[ilitary] & Surname initial / Number style which we see on many other disability pension records [e.g. 3/MA/No. 12345, etc.].

It seems [from other my well known soldier] claims on discharges to the Z Reserve in 1919 were also/still likely to be given a Z claim number.

So definitely seems an on discharge to Z Reserve phenomenon.

:-) M

Correct - the Z number was discharge only via the Class Z reserve.  It doesn't prevent cases received a new style regional number later on. Any man who felt they had a claim to pension and who was being discharged to the Class Z reserve would be allocated the number for a claim. This was from around

 

I should have clarified that the 4-5 months I mentioned was just in respect of a specific section to deal with them, after they appear to have been merged back in to the rest of the MoP.

 

I made a Typo earlier by saying 1918 - it should have said 1919. The work started early 1919 and by mid 1919 was well underway (I've just managed to check my notes).

 

Craig

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Correct - the Z number was discharge only via the Class Z reserve.

Thanks - have noted your corrected to 1919 date for Z Reserve discharge pension claims.

:-) M

[ss002d6252]

Pre Class Z men received a Chelsea Number (until around mid 1918), then they swapped to a different style Alpha-numeric 'number', then they started using Z numbers in 1919 and then regional numbers from 1920.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

Pre Class Z men received a Chelsea Number (until around mid 1918), then they swapped to a different style Alpha-numeric 'number', then they started using Z numbers in 1919 and then regional numbers from 1920.

Every day a school day! - Many thanks

:-) M