11 Squadron RFC Badge?

[ChrisBoden]

To start, I’m the current Secretary for the 11 Squadron Association.

 

Recently a WW1 RFC artefact has been offered to the Association & Squadron and I’m trying to gain information on the shield style badge pictured as it is not a known badge to the current Squadron.

 

Does anyone have any ideas please? I wondered if it might be something to do with where the Squadron was based at the time....in this case 1916 so probably the Somme.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by ChrisBoden

[FROGSMILE]

This is a highly specialised inquiry as I know you realise.  To give you the best chance of drawing attention I would suggest you either, amend the title of your thread to include the terms RFC Squadron badge, or transfer the entire query to the section of the forum that focuses on “Air personnel and the war in the air”. 

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[ChrisBoden]

Thanks for the info. I will change the title as I’d realised my mistake just now just by browsing other posts.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, ChrisBoden said:

Thanks for the info. I will change the title as I’d realised my mistake just now just by browsing other posts.

Glad to help Chris, it’s an interesting inquiry and I shall follow its progress with interest.   I served at Netheravon Airfield, where 11 Squadron was formed, for several years and had annual formal photos taken outside the officers’ mess with its iconic RFC wings overhead above the entrance.  I managed to borrow some associated paintings from the RAF Museum and drafted mini squadron histories to hang beneath each one.  I’ve often wondered what happened to them when the Army withdrew leaving just the parachute centre.
It might be worth you repeating your inquiry with the Museum of Army Flying at Middle Wallop just in case they have something.  Their RFC collection is surprisingly comprehensive, in part because so many WW1 aviation veterans considered themselves part of the Army having never really served for any length of time with the RAF and so when passing on left much of their memorabilia to Army archives.  That’s not to say that all did so, just that a surprising number did.

 

NB. The Imperial War Museum also has a huge WW1 archive that can often be overlooked.  There are also hand written and typed 11 Sqn RFC documents in the National Archives that might contain potentially relevant imagery.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I think that it’s a stylised representation of the Grecian winged figure of Mercury in the centre.  The rays behind like an Art Deco design often seen of the sun rising behind a green hill and representing a bright new day/future.  Also a Laurel wreath in a horseshoe shape tied at the bottom.  

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[ChrisBoden]

Thanks for the info. I've passed it onto my colleague who does a lot of research for the 11 Squadron History Room at RAF Coningsby.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, ChrisBoden said:

Thanks for the info. I've passed it onto my colleague who does a lot of research for the 11 Squadron History Room at RAF Coningsby.

I’m pleased to help Chris.  Good luck to 11 Squadron in their efforts to find out more.  It’s a cracking artefact to have.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

6 hours ago, ChrisBoden said:

Recently a WW1 RFC artefact has been offered to the Association & Squadron and I’m trying to gain information on the shield style badge pictured as it is not a known badge to the current Squadron.

It’s nothing to do with the squadron I’m afraid. 
 

It’s the logo/ trademark of the propeller manufacturer Lang Propellers of Weybridge. 
 

Cheers,

 

GT. 

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant spot GT.  Had you come across them before?  I wonder if they ever made propellers for the Vickers Gunbus F5.B.  Their logo gives a much better view of the design, and it’s possible to see that what could only be made out as a cross on the picture above is in fact 4-props in cruciform.  The Art Deco influence on the background shows very well.

 

Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

 

Edited 16 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[ChrisBoden]

Aaahh, that never entered my head.

 

It’s quite interesting though that the colours depicted in the photo appear to be black & yellow which have been the RAF 11 Squadron colours (non heraldic) since.......well a long time ago!

 

Thanks for the info. I shall now shoot everyone down in flames.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, ChrisBoden said:

Aaahh, that never entered my head.

 

It’s quite interesting though that the colours depicted in the photo appear to be black & yellow which have been the RAF 11 Squadron colours (non heraldic) since.......well a long time ago!

 

Thanks for the info. I shall now shoot everyone down in flames.

When you read the history of Lang Propellors and their previous connection with the aero company working out of the still existing Larkhill hangars, it doesn’t seem completely impossible that there might have been some kind of association with the squadron.  As you will know, in those early days of aviation the commercial aero companies were working extremely closely with the military and naval aviation effort, hence the whole series of Royal Aircraft Factory machines that came into use.  Ergo there might be more to this than meets the eye.

Edited 16 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[ChrisBoden]

I now have a bit more information, albeit originally sent to my colleague for the Association History. The original owner of this propeller is called Victor Raymond and the following information came initially from his widow and then extra research was undertaken by the current owner. However, I can now confirm that the item will be passed on to the Association and once we have it in our sticky little mitts we are going to donate it to the Squadron.

 

Here is the info so far.........(it is suspected to be from a Gunbus).......

 

I have received further information regarding the ownership of the propeller from the widow and also done a little research myself. First from the widow.

 

·       Victor Raymond was born circa 1885 place unknown, but Southampton rings a bell for some reason, and died circa 1963 when he was in his 80s in Twickenham. He was the maternal grandfather and told her husband that he was born in South Africa and spent time there till the outbreak of WW1; but he loved to tell him stories so he wasn’t sure what to believe. He served in the army prior to the RFC, where he achieved the rank of Sgt. He was too old for military service in WW2. He did have a Pilot’s Licence gained during his RFC service which I think was given to his youngest son Edgar (neither of his sons did military service, Tubby the eldest was in a protected occupation; but didn’t want to serve and Edgar was still too young by the time WW2 was over). I am sure his role in the RFC was as ground crew, hence being given the propeller from the “crashed plane”, some of his service was in France. On the Death Certificate details it looked like the death had been recorded by Edgar, who needless to say died years ago prior to 1994. 

 

·        I looked in the WW1 records for Victor Raymond and found one with the Service Number 1467. They give the following information in their lists.

 

·       1914    RFC      Air Mechanic 2^nd Class

·       1916    RFC      Flight Sergeant

·       1918    RAF      Sergeant Major 1^st Class

 

Some of the sentences don’t seem to make sense especially the part of handing over the Pilot’s Licence over to Edgar.

 

Anyway, I now have to make formal contact with the Squadron Commander and an ex Boss who is now an Air Commodore serving in Washington DC. 

 

I’ll keep you all informed of my progress. 
 

Regards, Chris.

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting finding Chris and thank you for reporting back with your progress, it’s quite intriguing.  A rather pedantic point for me to make, but important nonetheless, is that the RFC was very much in the Army so it would be more accurate to say he was in a different part before joining the RFC.  If his service record survives then his attestation form will state what that was. Quite a few ground crew were former Royal Engineers, or Army Service Corps, although of course not all.  It’s good to know that it was a genuine piece with a decently recorded provenance.

Edited 16 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[hmsk212]

Hi

 

The service record of 1467 Victor Raymond shows that he was born in Cape Town on 23rd September 1879 and he was later married there on 14th August 1908. No service history prior to joining the RFC is shown. He served as a Disciplinarian.

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi

 

The service record of 1467 Victor Raymond shows that he was born in Cape Town on 23rd September 1879 and he was later married there on 14th August 1908. No service history prior to joining the RFC is shown. He served as a Disciplinarian.

 

Steve

That’s excellent information Steve and makes sense with an enlistment date of 1914 as an Air Mechanic 2nd Class.  There was a 3rd Class too but that was largely for men with less technical skills, such as those used with balloons.  It suggests that he started with airframes from the outset.

[hmsk212]

Hi

 

He joined the Army / RFC on 12th August 1914 and was promoted to Corporal 27th August 1914.  Air Mechanic was a rank much like Private and does not necessarily mean someone who worked as a mechanic / fitter etc, he was rated as a Disciplinarian. Disciplinarians were generally old soldiers placed in charge of cadets etc. This probably means that he served in South Africa during the Boer War but this was not entered on his records. He served with the RFC in France from 2nd March 1915 to 8th May 1915 and then from 23rd July 1915 onwards.

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi

 

He joined the Army / RFC on 12th August 1914 and was promoted to Corporal 27th August 1914.  Air Mechanic was a rank much like Private and does not necessarily mean someone who worked as a mechanic / fitter etc, he was rated as a Disciplinarian. Disciplinarians were generally old soldiers placed in charge of cadets etc. This probably means that he served in South Africa during the Boer War but this was not entered on his records. He served with the RFC in France from 2nd March 1915 to 8th May 1915 and then from 23rd July 1915 onwards.

 

Steve

Thanks Streve, that all makes sense.  I know  about the status of the RFC Air Mechanic and that it was the lowest rank, but I disagree that it was quite like private.  There were three ascending grades of Air Mechanic related to pay and so an Air Mechanic 1st Class certainly had skills deemed as superior to an Air Mechanic 3rd Class, most of whom worked on balloons.

 It would be interesting if it could be determined what unit he served with during the 2nd Boer War.  Perhaps Imperial Yeomanry, or more likely one of the Auxiliary Police or Colonial Light Horse units. 

Edited 16 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Faye Holloway]

This is amazing to read. Victor Raymond was my Great Grandfather and I've been trying to research him in my family history. This is awesome stuff. 

[Faye Holloway]

I would love to chat further about what you found out, especially on Victor's marriage in 1908. I have supporting documents, photos of him, a photo of his medals, but he has been somewhat of a Brick Wall in my research as I can find no history on his parents etc. I only know of his recent family, my Grandmother being one of his daughters. There was always a rumour that he had another family in South Africa, but nothing concrete. 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. @ChrisBoden hasn’t visited the forum for a few years. Hopefully, my tag will alert them to your posts. 

[Faye Holloway]

Thank you Michelle, that's helpful :-) 

[Faye Holloway]

@FROGSMILE @hmsk212

Some updates to discuss :-) 

Faye Holloway (Granddaughter of Beryl Raymond, one of Victor's daughters) 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Faye Holloway said:

@FROGSMILE @hmsk212

Some updates to discuss :-) 

Faye Holloway (Granddaughter of Beryl Raymond, one of Victor's daughters) 

Excellent to get confirmation of his prior service Faye, thank you for posting.  He was certainly quite a character.

Here are some images of Imperial Light Horse insignia (cap and collar badges) and uniform as worn on the veldt, plus also the special, four bladed propellor worn by the rank of Flight Sergeant RFC.  A 4-pointed star on the hub was a key feature.

 

 

Edited 31 January by FROGSMILE

[Faye Holloway]

Thank you @FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Faye Holloway said:

Thank you @FROGSMILE

I’m glad to help Faye.  If Chris Boden doesn’t get back to you via Michelle’s summons then I’d recommend you seek him through the RAF Museum at Hendon.  He has had dealings with the museum in the past and they can probably help you contact him with the details of the 11 Squadron Association even if he’s no longer its secretary.  Good luck🤞