Info on my Great Grandfather who died at the Battle of Langemarck

[KRRCchap]

Hi, I am a newbie and hope that some of you may be able to help me please.

 

I have just learnt that my Great Grandfather Bertie Edmund Titmas of the 12th Battalion of the KRRC, service number R/27362 died in the Great War. I have been able to find out that he died at the Battle of Langemarck (16th-18th August 1917) but I have conflicting dates of his death. A family member did a genealogy search on our family tree and it came back that he died on the 16th August, however the CWGC gives the date of death as the 17th August.

 

Through various searches on google, I have found his medal index card but that is all and I would dearly like to track down his military records (he enlisted at Radcliffe, Middx but I don't know when) so that I can find out when he arrived in France and also what engagements he was involved in as well as the correct date of death. Also, very little is known about him as he died very young at 32 (he had 6 children) and there is no family members living who can tell me anything, hence my request.

 

What I would really like to locate is his attestation papers or any medical records (was he wounded at any time etc) so that I could hopefully find out his address at the time, I know he was from Stepney in London.

 

Any help would be extremely appreciated. 

[jonbem]

Hi and welcome

You can currently dowload, on registration, war diaries from National Archives, for free

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=12 Battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps&_ser=WO 95&id=C14303

This may assist in the date, though no guarantees

or if you are on Ancestry try HERE

I would suggest from that 16th is more likely

regards

Jon

Edited 11 January , 2021 by jonbem

[KRRCchap]

Hi Jon, many thanks for the information, It will be a start and I will head over to there to have a look.

 

Do you know if this would give any service history of Bertie or is it just the daily diary of his regiment, which I guess may not mention him by name and therefore not mention his death.

 

I also found out that he was part of the 12th Battalion but do not know which company he would have been attached to and therefore guess this is the 'needle in the haystack question'.

 

Desperate for any info :-)

 

Again, much appreciated.

Simon

[jonbem]

Other ranks are rarely mentioned in diaries so just the daily stuff

 

rgds

Jon

[KRRCchap]

1 minute ago, jonbem said:

Other ranks are rarely mentioned in diaries so just the daily stuff

 

rgds

Jon

Ok, many thanks Jon.

[jonbem]

Ancestry MIC HERE

Ancestry Medal Roll HERE

Ancestry Soldiers Died HERE

Ancestry Soldiers Effects HERE

 

[jonbem]

I can't find a service record, probably lost in the Blitz

In September 1940, as the result of a fire caused by an incendiary bomb at the War Office Record Store in Arnside Street, London, approximately two thirds of 6.5 million soldiers' documents for the First World War were destroyed. Those records which survived were mostly charred or water damaged and unfit for consultation and became known as the 'burnt documents'. Commencing in 1996 and with the aid of Lottery funding and volunteers from the Genealogical Society of Utah under an agreement with the Ministry of Defence, the surviving records were the subject of a large microfilming programme designed to capture as much information as possible from these fragile documents and enable them to be permanently preserved.

 

Also look at the tab link at top of page for Long Long Trail for loads of information

[KRRCchap]

1 hour ago, jonbem said:

I can't find a service record, probably lost in the Blitz

In September 1940, as the result of a fire caused by an incendiary bomb at the War Office Record Store in Arnside Street, London, approximately two thirds of 6.5 million soldiers' documents for the First World War were destroyed. Those records which survived were mostly charred or water damaged and unfit for consultation and became known as the 'burnt documents'. Commencing in 1996 and with the aid of Lottery funding and volunteers from the Genealogical Society of Utah under an agreement with the Ministry of Defence, the surviving records were the subject of a large microfilming programme designed to capture as much information as possible from these fragile documents and enable them to be permanently preserved.

 

Also look at the tab link at top of page for Long Long Trail for loads of information

Hi Jon

I cannot thank you enough for all the info you have provided. Sad news about the records being lost during WW2 as there may have been what I am seeking stored there.

 I am going to have a look through the ancestry records and hopefully that may turn something up.

Have a great day Jon and thank you again

Simon

[PRC]

Hi and a belated welcome to the forum.

 

His Medal Index Card shows he only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. This combination of medals would mean he did not serve in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

 

The related Service Medal Roll, (available only on Ancestry), if the clerk completing it has followed standing instructions, should show all the units he served with.

 

According to our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, the 12th Battalion had been in France since the 22nd July 1915, so Bertie must have done his initial training with other unit(s) in the UK.

 

He has no known grave, and unsurprisingly, Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as Killed in Action. No obvious Soldiers Will or Civil Probate. His entry on the Register of Soldiers Effects, (Ancestry, possibly Fold3), may give you another take on his date of death - a date range or a presumed died on or after date. It will also show who the balance of his pay and his War Gratuity went to - a useful check that you are looking at the right man. Clever people on the forum can also usually work out from the amount of the War Gratuity roughly when he enlisted.

 

Doesn't look like a missing persons enquiry was received by the International Committee of the Red Cross, (ICRC).

 

One scenario that you may be looking at is that he went into action on the 16th, and the first opportunity the unit had to take a roll-call was on the 17th when he was officially noted as missing. This can lead to both dates turning up in official records.

 

Looking at men with nearby service numbers.

 

R/27353 Walter Agass has surviving service records. These show that he enlisted on the 11th December 1915 under the Derby Scheme at Walthamstow . Aged 32 and married, he was a carman living at Walthamstow. Discharged to the Army Reserve the next day, he was mobilised on the 14th June 1916 and reported to the Depot. On the 18th he was posted to the 6th Battalion. On the 21st October he was posted as part of to the 12th Battalion. Sailing from Southampton on the 10th November 1916, he landed at Havre the next day, (many sailings were at night), and marched into 1 Infantry Base Depot the same day. While at the Depot he was reposted to the 13th Battalion on the 26th November 1916.

 

R/27354 Albert A Livemore doesn't have surviving service record. He was admitted to the 18th General Hospital on the 4th August 1917 whilst serving with the 21st Battalion. (FMP). He would subsequently be honourably discharged as no longer physically fit for service and was issued with the Silver War Badge. His Medal Index Card and the associated Silver Medal Roll, (Image on Ancestry, transcription on FindMyPast and Forces War Records) shows that he enlisted on the 10th December 1915.

 

R/27361 James West doesn't have surviving service records, but he was taken prisoner by the Germans on the 21st March 1918 while serving with the 9th Battalion. He was born 4th January 1878 at Poplar, and his next of kin, his wife, was living in Stepney.

 

There is a bit more on the Derby Scheme here:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Peter

 

Edited 11 January , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[KRRCchap]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Hi and a belated welcome to the forum.

 

His Medal Index Card shows he only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. This combination of medals would mean he did not serve in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

 

The related Service Medal Roll, (available only on Ancestry), if the clerk completing it has followed standing instructions, should show all the units he served with.

 

According to our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, the 12th Battalion had been in France since the 22nd July 1915, so Bertie must have done his initial training with other unit(s) in the UK.

 

He has no known grave, and unsurprisingly, Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as Killed in Action. No obvious Soldiers Will or Civil Probate. His entry on the Register of Soldiers Effects, (Ancestry, possibly Fold3), may give you another take on his date of death - a date range or a presumed died on or after date. It will also show who the balance of his pay and his War Gratuity went to - a useful check that you are looking at the right man. Clever people on the forum can also usually work out from the amount of the War Gratuity roughly when he enlisted.

 

Doesn't look like a missing persons enquiry was received by the International Committee of the Red Cross, (ICRC).

 

One scenario that you may be looking at is that he went into action on the 16th, and the first opportunity the unit had to take a roll-call was on the 17th when he was officially noted as missing. This can lead to both dates turning up in official records.

 

Looking at men with nearby service numbers.

 

R/27353 Walter Agass has surviving service records. These show that he enlisted on the 11th December 1915 under the Derby Scheme at Walthamstow . Aged 32 and married, he was a carman living at Walthamstow. Discharged to the Army Reserve the next day, he was mobilised on the 14th June 1916 and reported to the Depot. On the 18th he was posted to the 6th Battalion. On the 21st October he was posted as part of to the 12th Battalion. Sailing from Southampton on the 10th November 1916, he landed at Havre the next day, (many sailings were at night), and marched into 1 Infantry Base Depot the same day. While at the Depot he was reposted to the 13th Battalion on the 26th November 1916.

 

R/27354 Albert A Livemore doesn't have surviving service record. He was admitted to the 18th General Hospital on the 4th August 1917 whilst serving with the 21st Battalion. (FMP). He would subsequently be honourably discharged as no longer physically fit for service and was issued with the Silver War Badge. His Medal Index Card and the associated Silver Medal Roll, (Image on Ancestry, transcription on FindMyPast and Forces War Records) shows that he enlisted on the 10th December 1915.

 

R/27361 James West doesn't have surviving service records, but he was taken prisoner by the Germans on the 21st March 1918 while serving with the 9th Battalion. He was born 4th January 1878 at Poplar, and his next of kin, his wife, was living in Stepney.

 

There is a bit more on the Derby Scheme here:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter

Thank you very much for taking the time to give me all this information.

 

Based on Jon's recommendation, I went on to Ancestry and managed to get the following;

 

1. Medal index card (you are correct, they only show he was entitled to the Victory and British War medals)

2.Regimental Medal awards Roll (This only shows he served with the KRRC, no other regiments mentioned).

3.Register of Soldiers effects (This shows his effects went to his wife, but nothing on there showing enlistment date.

 

I presume that any other documents were destroyed in 1940 as Jon advised. However, I did find your pointer to the Derby Scheme interesting. 

 

Based on their tables and assigning numbers, DOB and marital status he was put in Group 40. This meant that his proclamation date was to be the 27th April 1916 and mobilisation date, the 29th May 1916, this is assuming that this was the method whereby he entered the service. If this was the case, he only lasted around 3 months before being KIA.

 

Thank you also for looking up men with nearby service numbers, I appreciate your efforts to do this for me. Interestingly enough, on the regimental medal roll document that I found, the page lists the service numbers of other soldiers in service number order. For example the First entry is for service number 27359 and the last 27363 - Bertie was 27362, not sure if I can get anything from that?.

 

I will carry on searching hoping that some other information may turn up. As an aside, I have contacted the Last Post Association and requested (and been given a slot, Covid rules allowing) for the 16th August this year to take part in the ceremony at the Menin Gate to lay a wreath for Bertie. 

 

In the meantime, I am forever grateful to both Jon and yourself for trying to help me.

 

Kind Regards

Simon

 

 

 

[John Milner]

Hello Simon

 

Send me a PM with your e-mail address if you would like the info from the History of the 20th (Light) Division, my grandfather was wounded during the attack on Eagle Trench on the 17 August with the 12th RB.

 

Just checked Find My Past and SD CD has his date of death as 16 August 1917.

 

John

Edited 11 January , 2021 by John Milner

[KRRCchap]

1 hour ago, John Milner said:

Hello Simon

 

Send me a PM with your e-mail address if you would like the info from the History of the 20th (Light) Division, my grandfather was wounded during the attack on Eagle Trench on the 17 August with the 12th RB.

 

Just checked Find My Past and SD CD has his date of death as 16 August 1917.

 

John

Hi John

Many thanks, PM sent.

Simon

[PRC]

4 hours ago, KRRCchap said:

Register of Soldiers effects (This shows his effects went to his wife, but nothing on there showing enlistment date.

 

It won't do, but from the amount of the War Gratuity it can usually be worked out roughly when he was enlisted.

 

4 hours ago, KRRCchap said:

Thank you also for looking up men with nearby service numbers, I appreciate your efforts to do this for me. Interestingly enough, on the regimental medal roll document that I found, the page lists the service numbers of other soldiers in service number order. For example the First entry is for service number 27359 and the last 27363 - Bertie was 27362, not sure if I can get anything from that?.

 

It's always a bit of a grey area for the Derby scheme men, at least for me!, as to whether the service numbers were allocated when they originally enlisted or when they were mobilised.

 

At the time of the original enlistment ties up with Agass and Livermore - I understand it was common practice for recruiting offices pre-war to have their own batches of numbers, so a slightly later number could end up allocated to an earlier recruit. However if it was on mobilisation then you would be looking at the date from the record for Agass.

 

Bertie or his employer could also have put in for a delay to allow a replacement worker to be sourced & trained which would have taken his mobilisation through into June .

 

A wider sampler of records could flesh things out a bit more clearly. Odd bits of the records survive, so a few pages for another servicemen may shed some light on other areas of Bertie's army career. Thus you may find some of the draft that went out on the 10th November 1916 intended for the 12th Battalion did actually get to them. Or there may have been a subsequent draft to replace the earlier draft that was redirected to the 13th Battalion.

 

The medal roll, being in service number order will help with simplifying the search - many rolls are in alphabetical order, so you have to run through the MiC's. Bear in mind missing numbers could well have gone on to serve with other units, so you will still need to check the MiC records.(Edit - added)

 

It may also be possible to track down the unit they trained with. The record for Walter Agass shows the 6th Battalion. Long, Long Trail adds:-

 

5th and 6th (Reserve) Battalions

August 1914 : in Winchester. Depot/training units, they moved on mobilisation to Sheerness and remained in this area throughout the war. In 1918 the 6th Bn was at nearby Queenborough. Both were part of the Thames & Medway Garrison.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-royal-rifle-corps/

 

This may go some way towards explaining the variety of units these men ended up serving with in the fighting Battalions of the KRRC.

 

A run through of the Battle of Passchendaele day by day records on the 16th August 1917.

 

20th (Light) Division

61 Bde

The brigade had a comparatively easy advance with 7th Bn, Somerset Light Infantry and 7th Bn, King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry advancing to take the first two objectives, coming under fire from Au Bon Gite until that was taken by 11th Rifle Brigade of 60 Bde. The advance continued taking a blockhouse west of Langemarck and Langemarck Station. 12th Bn King’s Liverpool Regt and 7th Bn Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry then took over and continued to the final objective by 7.45 am. The Rat House position south east of Langemarck remained in German hands however.

60 Bde

60 Bde attacked initially with 6th Bn, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry up front. 6th Bn King’s Shropshire Light Infantry and 12th Bn, King’s Royal Rifle Corps were to follow through and take the third objective with 12th Bn, Rifle Brigade in reserve.

Across the Steenbeek, the troops had to move in small columns and single file between mud and water filled craters.Despite this the first objective was reached with little difficulty, the Shropshires taking Alouette Farm. The brigade advanced, clearing Langemarck and forming up on the second objective. The advance was resumed at 7.20 am. 30 minutes later the brigade reached the third objective with KSLI taking White House. The Germans sheltered in a wood behind this position once they had been forced from Kangaroo Trench.

On the final objective the forward units of the division dug in to repel the inevitable counter attacks. Left to right they were 7th DCLI and 12th King’s Liverpool Regt (61 Bde) and 12th KRRC and 6th KSLI (60 Bde). The brigade boundaries were at Schreiboom and it was here that the Germans attacked at 4 pm, forcing the KRRC and the Liverpools back about 200 yards. The Germans were forced back once more with the assistance of the Shropshires.

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?11535-The-Battle-of-Passchendaele/page2

 

The Commonwealth Wealth War Graves Commission website records that 67 men of the 12th Battalion died on the 16th August 1917. Most are like Bertie in that they have no known grave and are remembered on the Tyne Cot Memorial.

 

However a few were recovered from the battlefield post-war, often with unknown British Soldiers found nearby. If you look on their CWGC webpages you will see an original document, the Concentration report, detailing the exhumation and re-interment. Examples include:-

 

Rifleman R/58 Thomas H. Britt, found at Map Reference Sheet S.E 20 1/20000 U.28c.9.4 in 1920 and identified from his disc. From the same reference an unknown KRRC men was recovered. They both now lie Poelcapelle British Cemetery in graves XLIX.C.3. and 5 respectively.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/491230/

 

Rifleman C/6196 Herbert Mitchell, ‘A’Company was originally an unknown British Soldier recovered from the battlefield in October 1919 in map reference square U.30.a.

There is no indication of how he was positively identified but he now lies in Cement House Cemetery in grave XI.A.29.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/97920/

 

Rifleman R/34891 Alfred Snowden Pratt was found in 1926 at map reference 28.C.3.a.0.6 and identified by his disc. The same location gave up stretcher bearer Rifleman R/18599 P.H. Rhyll who was identified from his arm band and a ring. They both now lie in Oosttaverne Wood Cemetery – which was map reference 28.O.15.c.40.85.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/105238/

 

Rifleman R/2675 William Walmsely was found in 1920 at map reference Sheet 20, 1/40000 U.23.d.3.7 and identified from his disc. He too has been moved to Poelcappelle British Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/492245/

 

There are a couple more but one was attached to a Trench Mortar Battery and the other had a marked grave.

 

On the 17th CWGC have four men of the 12th Battalion, (including Bertie), recorded as having died on this day. All apart from Bertie appear to have been buried at the time.

 

The three, Rifleman R/4491 Alfred Burr, Rifleman A/200357 Frank Richard Henderson and Rifleman 12793 Dick Sutton, are all recorded on Soldiers Died in the Great War as Died of Wounds. So possibly that reinforces the belief that Bertie died on the 16th.

 

Hope that is of interest,

Peter

 

Edited 11 January , 2021 by PRC
Add reference to missing numbers and typo

[KRRCchap]

31 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

It won't do, but from the amount of the War Gratuity it can usually be worked out roughly when he was enlisted.

 

 

It's always a bit of a grey area for the Derby scheme men, at least for me!, as to whether the service numbers were allocated when they originally enlisted or when they were mobilised.

 

At the time of the original enlistment ties up with Agass and Livermore - I understand it was common practice for recruiting offices pre-war to have their own batches of numbers, so a slightly later number could end up allocated to an earlier recruit. However if it was on mobilisation then you would be looking at the date from the record for Agass.

 

Bertie or his employer could also have put in for a delay to allow a replacement worker to be sourced & trained which would have taken his mobilisation through into June .

 

A wider sampler of records could flesh things out a bit more clearly. Odd bits of the records survive, so a few pages for another servicemen may shed some light on other areas of Bertie's army career. Thus you may find some of the draft that went out on the 10th November 1916 intended for the 12th Battalion did actually get to them. Or there may have been a subsequent draft to replace the earlier draft that was redirected to the 13th Battalion.

 

The medal roll, being in service number order will help with simplifying the search - many rolls are in alphabetical order, so you have to run through the MiC's. Bear in mind missing

 

It may also be possible to track down the unit they trained with. The record for Walter Agass shows the 6th Battalion. Long, Long Trail adds:-

 

5th and 6th (Reserve) Battalions

August 1914 : in Winchester. Depot/training units, they moved on mobilisation to Sheerness and remained in this area throughout the war. In 1918 the 6th Bn was at nearby Queenborough. Both were part of the Thames & Medway Garrison.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-royal-rifle-corps/

 

This may go some way towards explaining the variety of units these men ended up serving with in the fighting Battalions of the KRRC.

 

A run through of the Battle of Passchendaele day by day records on the 16th August 1917.

 

20th (Light) Division

61 Bde

The brigade had a comparatively easy advance with 7th Bn, Somerset Light Infantry and 7th Bn, King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry advancing to take the first two objectives, coming under fire from Au Bon Gite until that was taken by 11th Rifle Brigade of 60 Bde. The advance continued taking a blockhouse west of Langemarck and Langemarck Station. 12th Bn King’s Liverpool Regt and 7th Bn Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry then took over and continued to the final objective by 7.45 am. The Rat House position south east of Langemarck remained in German hands however.

60 Bde

60 Bde attacked initially with 6th Bn, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry up front. 6th Bn King’s Shropshire Light Infantry and 12th Bn, King’s Royal Rifle Corps were to follow through and take the third objective with 12th Bn, Rifle Brigade in reserve.

Across the Steenbeek, the troops had to move in small columns and single file between mud and water filled craters.Despite this the first objective was reached with little difficulty, the Shropshires taking Alouette Farm. The brigade advanced, clearing Langemarck and forming up on the second objective. The advance was resumed at 7.20 am. 30 minutes later the brigade reached the third objective with KSLI taking White House. The Germans sheltered in a wood behind this position once they had been forced from Kangaroo Trench.

On the final objective the forward units of the division dug in to repel the inevitable counter attacks. Left to right they were 7th DCLI and 12th King’s Liverpool Regt (61 Bde) and 12th KRRC and 6th KSLI (60 Bde). The brigade boundaries were at Schreiboom and it was here that the Germans attacked at 4 pm, forcing the KRRC and the Liverpools back about 200 yards. The Germans were forced back once more with the assistance of the Shropshires.

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?11535-The-Battle-of-Passchendaele/page2

 

The Commonwealth Wealth War Graves Commission website records that 67 men of the 12th Battalion died on the 16th August 1917. Most are like Bertie in that they have no known grave and are remembered on the Tyne Cot Memorial.

 

However a few were recovered from the battlefield post-war, often with unknown British Soldiers found nearby. If you look on their CWGC webpages you will see an original document, the Concentration report, detailing the exhumation and re-interment. Examples include:-

 

Rifleman R/58 Thomas H. Britt, found at Map Reference Sheet S.E 20 1/20000 U.28c.9.4 in 1920 and identified from his disc. From the same reference an unknown KRRC men was recovered. They both now lie Poelcapelle British Cemetery in graves XLIX.C.3. and 5 respectively.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/491230/

 

Rifleman C/6196 Herbert Mitchell, ‘A’Company was originally an unknown British Soldier recovered from the battlefield in October 1919 in map reference square U.30.a.

There is no indication of how he was positively identified but he now lies in Cement House Cemetery in grave XI.A.29.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/97920/

 

Rifleman R/34891 Alfred Snowden Pratt was found in 1926 at map reference 28.C.3.a.0.6 and identified by his disc. The same location gave up stretcher bearer Rifleman R/18599 P.H. Rhyll who was identified from his arm band and a ring. They both now lie in Oosttaverne Wood Cemetery – which was map reference 28.O.15.c.40.85.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/105238/

 

Rifleman R/2675 William Walmsely was found in 1920 at map reference Sheet 20, 1/40000 U.23.d.3.7 and identified from his disc. He to has been moved to Poelcappelle British Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/492245/

 

There are a couple more but one was attached to a Trench Mortar Battery and the other had a marked grave.

 

On the 17th CWGC have four men of the 12th Battalion, (including Bertie), recorded as having died on this day. All apart from Bertie appear to have been buried at the time.

 

The three, Rifleman R/4491 Alfred Burr, Rifleman A/200357 Frank Richard Henderson and Rifleman 12793 Dick Sutton, are all recorded on Soldiers Died in the Great War as Died of Wounds. So possibly that reinforces the belief that Bertie died on the 16th.

 

Hope that is of interest,

Peter

 

Hi Peter

All of this information is invaluable to me, I cannot thank you and the other guys on here enough who have all been so helpful in providing information. I am really getting to piece together many aspects of Berties life. Who knows.... the recovered but unknown KRRC man could have been Bertie? I will definitely look closer at the CWGC website, I did not know it contained much further info as you have kindly detailed for me.

Regarding the Gratuity that was given to his wife, I have attached a snapshot of the record (I hope this is allowed!) which shows an amount but I do not know how to interpret the record correctly to work out when he enlisted. Maybe someone on here can shed some light. 

Anyway, thank you again for your help.

Regards

Simon

 

 

 

[jay dubaya]

Thanks to Craig’s War Gratuity Calculator, the payment would suggest an enlistment date of 17th May 1916.

[KRRCchap]

Wow, that is great, This again is a big help... many many thanks. 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, KRRCchap said:

Who knows.... the recovered but unknown KRRC man could have been Bertie?

 

Who knows indeed. You could always adopt him and when your over there leave a stone on top of the headstone on behalf of the Great War Forum.

 

1 hour ago, KRRCchap said:

Maybe someone on here can shed some light.

 

Big thank you to @jay dubaya . Certainly seems to back up the Derby Scheme mobilisation theory.

 

1 hour ago, KRRCchap said:

I have attached a snapshot of the record (I hope this is allowed!)

 

As long as it's proportionate and relevant then normally would be acceptable. The one thing the forum does ask is that you acknowledge the source alongside the image.

 

For example at the time Bertie die, the printing of the daily casualty lists were about to move over from being printed in The Times to being amalgamated into a weekly publication from the War Office and Admiralty. Thus the daily list issued on the 24th September 1917 and appearing in the weekly publication dated October 2nd 1917 included some names on page 6 under the heading "Killed" that may be of interest to you - if only because it indicates their fate was known at the time and there was no question of them being regarded as missing.

(Source: FindMyPast).

 

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

[KRRCchap]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Who knows indeed. You could always adopt him and when your over there leave a stone on top of the headstone on behalf of the Great War Forum.

 

 

Big thank you to @jay dubaya . Certainly seems to back up the Derby Scheme mobilisation theory.

 

 

As long as it's proportionate and relevant then normally would be acceptable. The one thing the forum does ask is that you acknowledge the source alongside the image.

 

For example at the time Bertie die, the printing of the daily casualty lists were about to move over from being printed in The Times to being amalgamated into a weekly publication from the War Office and Admiralty. Thus the daily list issued on the 24th September 1917 and appearing in the weekly publication dated October 2nd 1917 included some names on page 6 under the heading "Killed" that may be of interest to you - if only because it indicates their fate was known at the time and there was no question of them being regarded as missing.

(Source: FindMyPast).

 

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

Hi Peter

It certainly does help thank you. I would never have found out the information you have given me on my own and I am very grateful for all your help. I am now a little overwhelmed and need to sit down and look at all the info I have in more detail and piece it together.

You have been extremely kind to unearth all this on my behalf and I am indebted to you.

Take care and thanks again

Simon

 

[KRRCchap]

4 hours ago, KRRCchap said:

Hi Peter

All of this information is invaluable to me, I cannot thank you and the other guys on here enough who have all been so helpful in providing information. I am really getting to piece together many aspects of Berties life. Who knows.... the recovered but unknown KRRC man could have been Bertie? I will definitely look closer at the CWGC website, I did not know it contained much further info as you have kindly detailed for me.

Regarding the Gratuity that was given to his wife, I have attached a snapshot of the record (I hope this is allowed!) which shows an amount but I do not know how to interpret the record correctly to work out when he enlisted. Maybe someone on here can shed some light. 

Anyway, thank you again for your help.

Regards

Simon

 

 

 

With grateful thanks to Ancestry.com for use of part of their image.

[stiletto_33853]

Simon,

 

Try putting Au Bon Gite into the search engine. You will find many reports on the action from the 20th Div Diaries, this action has been covered many many times on the forum.

 

Andy

[KRRCchap]

12 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Simon,

 

Try putting Au Bon Gite into the search engine. You will find many reports on the action from the 20th Div Diaries, this action has been covered many many times on the forum.

 

Andy

Hi Andy, many thanks for the tip. I am eager to learn as much as possible.

Regards

Simon

[Ivor Anderson]

It is highly likely that your Grandfather died/was wounded during the action in which then Sgt. Edward Cooper won the Victoria Cross:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Cooper_(VC)

 

In all, the actions of that night led to men of the 12th Battalion being awarded 1 VC; 1 DSO, 2 MC, 2 DCM and 14 MM. All are named in the War Diary except for the 14 Military Medallists (there's that Law again). The Gazette dates vary as you would expect. The DSO and MCs appear on 25 September 1917 and the DCMs on 19 October 1917 and it seems that the MM awards in the LG of 2nd November include those for the action of 15/16th August. It is now known that of all the MMs in the Gazette of 2.11.17, as many as 85% are for actions in or around Langemark on 15/16 August.

Edited 14 February , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[KRRCchap]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

It is highly likely that your Grandfather died/was wounded during the action in which then Sgt. Edward Cooper won the Victoria Cross:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Cooper_(VC)

 

In all, the actions of that night led to men of the 12th Battalion being awarded 1 VC; 1 DSO, 2 MC, 2 DCM and 14 MM. All are named in the War Diary except for the 14 Military Medallists (there's that Law again). The Gazette dates vary as you would expect. The DSO and MCs appear on 25 September 1917 and the DCMs on 19 October 1917 and it seems that the MM awards in the LG of 2nd November include those for the action of 15/16th August. It is now known that of all the MMs in the Gazette of 2.11.17, as many as 85% are for actions in or around Langemark on 15/16 August.

Many thanks Ivor, appreciate the additional info that you have provided. Does anyone know the location of the blockhouse that Sgt Cooper attacked. The obvious one being Au Bon Gite, but I believe there were others but I have been unable to find their locations

[Ivor Anderson]

This 1917 Trench Map shows 'Au Bon Gite' (The Good House), a former Inn in which the Germans built a fortified bunker.

It is bottom centre on the extract below (other bunker names are shown): https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464861

There is a photo of it back then in this thread: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/39576-au-bon-gite/?tab=comments#comment-324556

 

 

Edited 15 February , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[Ivor Anderson]

The Military Medal to R-582 Pte. John H Ryder 12th KRRC is one of those awarded for the August 1917 Battle of Langemark. It sold last night on ebay.