Tanks at 3rd Ypres

[JohnC]

Lodged amidst some unrelated papers I found this rail Movement Order. It’s for 12 tanks on 21 trucks, from Beaumetz (lez-Cambrai?) via Hazebrouck to Y Camp Siding at Oosthoek. Dated 27th August 1917. I know that Oosthoek, near Poperinge, was the assembly area for the initial tank force in July, and presumably these 12 tanks were replacements. I wonder, from the date and locations, can anyone identify the actual tanks and what subsequently became of them? Thanks in advance,

John

[delta]

Thanks for sharing this - 12 tanks represent one complete company but, t this stage,  can't see  a movement of a unit.

Perhaps it is the movement of spare tanks and their associated equipment  to replace losses in action

[JohnC]

Hello Stephen,

Thanks for your reply. The closest relevant information I can find is that in May 1917 a standard tank train consisted of 12 trucks for tanks, 3 for stores, 1 coach for 30 officers, 6 covered waggons for 200 other ranks and 2 brake vans. 24 trucks in total. So not 21, but close.  This from pages 308/309 of Transportation on the Western Front 1914 - 1918

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.84806/page/n295/mode/2up

The arithmetic works if the 3 trucks of stores are deleted, assuming there to be a plentiful stock at the destination.

I also now think it’s the Beaumetz just east of Abbeville, which was an entraining point for the Cambrai tank concentrations. Makes more sense in the context of replacement stock/unit from the UK.

[johntaylor]

Hi, I suspect the station was the one called Beaumetz-Riviere, which confusingly is in a village called Beaumetz-les-Loges west of Arras. There is a photo in this French album dated 1915: https://argonnaute.parisnanterre.fr/ark:/14707/a011432125245rC12UT/b72ce1dd29 

 

The building seems to still be there, and I've attached a Google Street view photo (with what looks like the word "Riviere" just visible on the end wall). The reason I think it was this one is that I've seen similar photos taken by Tank Corps officers, who probably used the station because it was close to the tank driving area at Wailly - this was a section of the former German front line used for training once the Battle of Arras was over.

 

Regarding Oosthoek Wood, this was indeed used as a "tankodrome" (or assembly and maintenance area) for a number of tank battalions during 3rd Ypres - this map from the Tank Corps HQ War Diary shows the location of Y Camp (including the rail siding), which was allocated to C Battalion so they're the most likely recipients, or possibly F Battalion who were in neighbouring Z Camp. These could have been replacement tanks since most battalions had suffered heavy losses in the opening stages of the battle. Alternatively it could have been a company of 12 tanks returning from Wailly - if you look at C Bn War Diary they mention that No 7 Company went there in early September, so this is a possibility. Movement orders are found in some War Diaries so more detail may come to light.

 

All the best, John

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 January , 2021 by johntaylor

[JohnC]

Thanks John,

That’s brilliant, it’s given me something to work from.

I’d found the mass of sidings NE of Pop on the 1:20,000 sheet 28 but not Y Camp.

 

 

[johntaylor]

It's a pleasure - in fact I wonder if this training was carrying an entire company of men and their 12 tanks. The train was also carrying 26 officers and 181 other ranks which I'm guessing was about the right complement for a company - other tank experts on the Forum may be able to confirm (or contradict) this. Each battalion consisted of three companies, so the War Diary would normally record such an important movement of men and machines. However it would mean checking through all the Tank Battalion War Diaries (currently free to download from the National Archives).

 

Of course it could be a mixed train made up of reinforcements, but the load of 12 tanks suggests it might well be a company returning from Wailly.

 

All the best, John

[JohnC]

I’d missed those numbers. The reference at my second post above indicates the nominal roll was 30 plus 200, so indeed it looks like a slightly under-strength company.

Looks like a spell at the war diaries coming up!

J

 

 

[johntaylor]

Actually I'd missed the numbers in your second post, which are very interesting and do seem to tie in with the movement order. It was almost certainly a company on the move, and there's a very good chance this will be recorded in a Battalion War Diary. If I'm right about Beaumetz then the company had probably been sent for training/recuperation at Wailly. If the company was coming straight from the Tank Corps Central Workshops and rear area (round Erin) then it wouldn't make sense to go that way, though I suppose nothing was impossible in wartime.

 

I'd be interested to know if you turn up anything in the War Diaries.

 

All the best, John

[dgibson150]

9th Battalion War Diary records that 12 Tanks of B Company (at the time named 26 Company) entrained at Beaumetz on 27 August 1917. The Bovington transcription reads

 

27. 8. 17.

9 pm;  12 tanks of 26 Company entrained at Beaumetz.    1 Mark I Signal Tank.

 

I'm not sure re the reference to a Signal Tank.

 

The entry for 28/8 confirms the destination was "Y" Camp.

 

David

[dgibson150]

The 9th Battalion war history for the August period reads (again from the Bovington transcription) :-

 

Towards the end of this period of strenuous training, rumours prevailed that we were bound for Belgium, which for once proved correct, and on the 24th, Capt Kinmont left for Oosthoek wood, whither the Battalion followed during the next four days, entraining at Beaumetz and detraining at a siding close to the wood itself.  The tanks were camouflaged in the wood and the personnel lived under canvas Round about them.  While here the Battalion received its baptism of fire, the enemy treating it to high velocity shrapnel and nightly bombing raids; both of which inflicted casualties, one man being killed and the RSM, among others, badly wounded.  The Colonel’s car also came in for considerable damage.  The bombing raids, though alarming to those of us who experienced them for the first time, were eventually conducive to some sporting efforts on the part of our machine gunners.  During this period the Battalion was in reserve, though it was never called upon to go into action.

 

This fits the criteria for the movement in question although it may not be unique.

 

David

[JohnC]

Thank you David, and also John and Stephen. This is a wonderful collection of information. Suddenly a little slip of paper comes to life and leads towards the stories of real people. By accounts I’ve found, Oosthoek Wood was a dismal place, hated for the bombardments and generally squalid conditions.

David, is the diary available online? I can’t find any results on the awful TNA catalogue search or a way to it through the Bovington website.

John

[dgibson150]

Hi John

 

The original war diary is available in The National Archives, ref WO 95-107-7.

 

If you want the transcription it will cost, I can't remember how much, maybe £10 to £15. Ordering is over the phone through the library.

 

David

[JohnC]

The TNA version will do for me. Cheers.

[johntaylor]

What a great find - well done David! Actually I don't think Oosthoek Wood was too unpopular by the standards of the Western Front, apart from the bombing and shelling which were relatively sporadic. There are plenty of descriptions of the tankodromes in the wood, and it was certainly vastly better than being in the Salient. At risk of plugging my book, the opening scenes are set in Oosthoek and I've quoted a number of these accounts, as well as investigating the story of Sergeant Phillips who became something of a bogeyman after he was captured before the battle, and gave away information including the presence of tanks.

 

It's now a pleasant and peaceful area of woodland, and almost impossible to imagine that it was once the scene of such frantic activity.

 

John

Edited 6 January , 2021 by johntaylor

[dgibson150]

I downloaded the HQ Tank Corps War Diary which included a report showing that there were no other movements of other Tank Corps Battalions in late August 1917, so the OP movement document must relate to the 9th ("I") Battalion.

 

David

 

 

[JohnC]

Thanks David.

I see from the war diary that 25 Company entrained and arrived on the 26th. Then 26 Company entrained on the 27th and arrived on 28th. Finally 27 Company entrained and arrived on the 29th. All from Beaumetz to Y Camp. So assuming the date on the chit is the date of loading, it most likely relates to 26 Company.

The only loose end is the Mark I signal tank. This seems to have arrived at Beaumetz on the 27th and travelled with 26 Company, but was not officially taken on their strength until 4th September. I wonder if its movement was covered by a separate order from its parent company?

John

[dgibson150]

Hi John

I can only add that the Signal Tank was returned on 11 September.

 

War Diary entry:-

 

"11.9.17.

Signal tanks returned and struck off the strength of the Battalion."

 

David

[JohnC]

Thanks David. Now I have the TNA copies of the war diary I’ll follow 26 Company through their subsequent actions.

J

[Allan1892]

On 06/01/2021 at 21:13, johntaylor said:

At risk of plugging my book, the opening scenes are set in Oosthoek

@johntaylor -- can you tell me the title of your book please?

[johntaylor]

Hi Allan, it's called Deborah and the War of the Tanks, originally published by Pen & Sword in 2016, though a revised paperback edition came out last year. It tells the story of two tanks with the crew number D51, the first of which took part in the Battle of Passchendaele, while the second played a heroic role in the Battle of Cambrai and is now displayed in a museum in the village of Flesquières.

All the best,

John

[Allan1892]

Hi John, thank you for replying -- I should have looked on my bookcase! -- Deborah is one of my favourite reads, should have realised today that the 3rd Ypres would have been covered in it. I'm busy writing up my great uncles story (F31, Fearnaught) and I'm trying to see if he was involved in 3rd Ypres - the War History of the Sixth Battalion doesn't mention F31 being in action.

Best wishes,

Allan

[johntaylor]

That's excellent Allan, I'm delighted you enjoyed the book! I agree the early history of F31 is a bit of a mystery and I've never seen anything about it at 3rd Ypres. However it might be worth posting your great-uncle's name - I'll have a look through the records I've got for F Bn to see if I can find anything, though it's a long shot.

All the best, John 

[Allan1892]

Hi John, he was Benjamin Hunter, MM & Bar. I started writing his story up a good while ago but like a lots of things it was put on the back burner due to more important things. Not so young now, I must get his story down in black and white to pass over to family members.

[johntaylor]

Hi, I've just looked at his MM citations in the Tank Corps Book of Honour - what a hero! No doubt you've seen them but they tell a remarkable story in themselves. I'll have a look in the records tomorrow and see if I can find anything, but I'm not too hopeful.

All the best, John