Need help trying to put a date to a WW1 photo-postcard

[Gary_G]

My grandfather, Thomas Baird Murison (Reg. No. 435078), joined the 50th Battalion CEF on 4 May 1915, he was transferred to the 49th Cdn Battalion in France from 24 March 1916 to 30 April 1918. He was then transferred to the 3rd Battalion of the Canadian Machine-Gun Corps. He served with that battalion until he suffered a serious gunshot wound to the face on 28 August 1918 and was subsequently treated and discharged.

I have a picture of him and colleagues wearing "soft" caps, not helmets, and some are wearing leather jerkins. My grandfather id the fellow on the right side, back row. If memory serves me correctly, steel helmets didn't get issued until October 1916 and the leather jerkins would only be worn in cold weather. If he didn't reach France until 24 March 1916, I wonder why the group are still wearing "soft" caps.

Perhaps, Someone has some ideas?

 

[SHJ]

Well it must be winter, as there are no leaves on the trees or buds on the plants behind them and on the wall plus there's the leather jerkins and muddy boots..  So, I'm guessing it should from Dec 1915 to Feb 1916 somewhere in the UK where they would have been training before moving on to France. The badge on the cap of the chap in the middle certainly looks 50th.   It's a great photo!   How bad was the wound?

[tootrock]

From the louvred shutters on the windows I would think this is in France or Belgium.

Martin

[SHJ]

I think Martin is right - the full length shutters over the large external window sill are more typically French / Belgian than British.

[Gary_G]

Fr

Quote

Thank you, everyone.

Northern France or Southern Belgium makes sense. I know that the 49th fought in that area. The buds would tend to indicate early spring, rather than winter. I suppose the weather might still have been cold enough for some to wear the leather jerkins and others to choose not to do so. The group look almost "too" clean, happy, and rested ... generally in very good shape, which might mean that this was taken before they saw much serious action. As he actually joined his unit in France, "in the field," on 7 April 1916 and the steel helmets didn't come in until October 1916, perhaps this was taken in early spring 1916 (April) in France? My records show he was treated for a "contusion, L. side" on 27 May 1916, so possibly before that?

The mention of the cap badge is interesting. I note that some don't have them. As Grand-dad was transferred from the 50th (in Canada) to the 23rd (in England) to the 49th (in France), perhaps some just didn't bother changing them or removed them altogether. Not sure about this.

 

[Gary_G]

21 hours ago, SHJ said:

It's a great photo!   How bad was the wound?

The wound was extremely serious. He was shot through the right cheek, which left a huge exit wound on the left one. Oral history says that he was placed on the "dead heap" and only removed when someone noticed movement. His frontal sinuses and left eye were heavily damaged and there was some shrapnel that they never did manage to remove. He lost the ability to see objects with his left eye, but could tell light from dark. He also had terrible headaches and poor health for the balance of his life. They did manage to make things "look" better by injecting paraffin wax to fill in some of the depressions of the wound, but it was a "patch" at best.

[SHJ]

Actually, maybe the badge is more 49th...     

[Gary_G]

I should have noted that the picture from a photo-postcard and labelled on the back as , "Carte Postale." While it doesn't say who produced the card and it was not actually used, I suspect that it being a commercial product indicates it was possibly made between the time he landed in France and the time he joined his unit. That would e a thing a person might do when they knew it might not be possible later.

 

13 minutes ago, SHJ said:

Actually, maybe the badge is more 49th...     

Yes. That's possible. Just wish the photo was a bit more clear...

Where's AI image processing when you need it...

[Gary_G]

Now that it appears that it was likely the spring of 1916, I can post a single image that covers the timeframe.

By the way; is it possible to find copies of the noted official documents? That could help a bit, in some cases.

 

[Gary_G]

22 hours ago, SHJ said:

Well it must be winter, as there are no leaves on the trees or buds on the plants behind them and on the wall plus there's the leather jerkins and muddy boots.

Sorry SJH, I got your comment totally mixed up. I see there are "no" buds or leaves. However; the boots and shoes look very clean when I blow up the image.

All said-and-done, it does mean that the latest it could ave been was early spring prior to buds forming.

I wonder what kind of vine is behind the group. The small "knobs" of growth look rather unusual. It could support the presumed locale.

[Gary_G]

Can someone tell me where I can find out exactly when the Canadians were issued the leather jerkins shown in the picture? Articles are few and far between and generally don't seem to agree on when the jerkins were issued,

[Andrew Upton]

17 hours ago, Gary_G said:

Can someone tell me where I can find out exactly when the Canadians were issued the leather jerkins shown in the picture? Articles are few and far between and generally don't seem to agree on when the jerkins were issued,

 

Not a Canadian specific answer, but:

 

Future Collector Goading Club (Dardanelles Branch) - Uniforms,Cap Badges and Insignia - Great War Forum

 

"The leather jerkin was introduced by pattern 8449/1915, 26 July 1915. It was produced in three sizes.

At first issue of the leather jerkin was restricted due to limited numbers being available. BEF General Routine Order 1204 , 13 October 1915, published scales of special winter clothing. This order states in regard leather jerkins that “for all services at the front except those provided with Coats, sheepskin lined”. General Routine Order 1257, 10 November 1915, further states in reference that, “...will be considered public clothing, owing to limited stocks, must not be accumulated by units to meet anticipated requirements: all surplus should be returned”. As stocks were accumulated issue of leather jerkins became far more widespread. In fact certain documents state that the jerkin was an acceptable substitute for the greatcoat.

Joe Sweeney"

 

The rows of stitching clearly visible on the peaks of several of the men's caps identify them as the "Cap, soft, Service Dress" (often called the "trench cap" by modern collectors:

 

Early soft cap - Uniforms,Cap Badges and Insignia - Great War Forum

 

"The first pattern cap Pattern 8706/1916 --11-Mar-16----Cap, soft, Service Dress, was made of serge with an "American cloth crown and flannel headband. First pattern Introduction."

 

The soft cap was intended to be a more comfortable (and still, relatively, smart) alternative to the steel helmet when out of the frontline:

 

Steel Helmets Going Over The Top - Other Equipment - Great War Forum

 

"Until May 1916 Helmets were treated as Trench stores and helmets transferred from one unit to the next. In May 1916 they were declared as personal issue items. Although by this time the frequency of transferring helmets was declining as large numbers were in the field by May.

Soldiers would have worn their caps to wherever the transfer point was then gained the helmets. I've never come across an order or diary stating exactly what they were to do with the caps."

 

Everything about this photo would suggest a mid/late 1916 date at earliest, and taken somewhere just outside the front lines (note gas masks being carried in their satchels, also the seated man viewers left still appears to be wearing trench waders as well!).

 

 

Edited 23 December , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[SHJ]

17 hours ago, Gary_G said:

I wonder what kind of vine is behind the group. The small "knobs" of growth look rather unusual. It could support the presumed locale.

They look like fruit plants of some sort.  I'd guess apple, pear or perhaps grape.  The wall of the yard behind them has the same or similar - the plant has been trained or 'espalier' to climb the wall in a pattern.  The cycle from pruning to first growth would be October to March.  

 

I think Belgium, March & 1916 is looking a better bet.  I'm just reading the 49th battalion war diaries for March 1916 and they are excellent!  The detail for the ordinary soldier is unusually detailed - I don't expect it will continue as they reach their first serious encounter (Mount Sorell) but it makes terrific reading.

 

I see re-joined the battalion after that injury - I would have expected that would have been enough to send him home!

[SHJ]

The casualty form states that the contusion happened on the 27 May 1916 - was there a second wound in August 1918?

[Gary_G]

4 hours ago, SHJ said:

The casualty form states that the contusion happened on the 27 May 1916 - was there a second wound in August 1918?

There were several more wounds to his hips and legs, but the one I posted about for you on the 23 December was the one that happened in late August of 1918.

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 22/12/2020 at 15:28, Gary_G said:

By the way; is it possible to find copies of the noted official documents?

Which ones? Do you mean the ones referred to in the 'Remarks' column?

[Gary_G]

5 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Everything about this photo would suggest a mid/late 1916 date at earliest, and taken somewhere just outside the front lines (note gas masks being carried in their satchels, also the seated man viewers left still appears to be wearing trench waders as well!).

Andrew;

I really appreciate the detailed information about the equipment. The observation about the cap stitching is excellent. I, too, noted the straps for satchels of some sort; likely for gas masks. It's a shame one can't see the shape of what was attached, because the types of masks changed over time.

 

Did you notice that one fellow had a badge on his collar? (Wish it was and the other insignia were clearer.)

I do have a question about the your suggestion that it's from mid /late 1916. The total lack of leaves on the vines and trees suggests early spring or late fall, rather than mid-year. You'll also notice the shutters are wide open and the window is only open a crack. Might be to permit the entry of light and a bit of ventilation without losing heat. Again; this suggests spring or fall. Could I ask why you eliminated spring 1916?

I also note that the presence of the jerkins imply that they were plentiful enough to be personal items at the time of the photo and still cold enough to want to wear them. However; they are rather well-wrinkled and obviously not fresh from stores. This tends to imply the jerkins were hand-me-downs or the fellows had already seen some action. If the fellows were just over from England, they would likely have been issued "fresh" jerkins. So; the picture could well have been in the fall of 1916 after some action.

 

You're correct about the significance of the presence of the trench-waders on one fellow. For him to have them on in the picture means that the picture was taken after he had seen some action and after they ceased to be so scarce as to be trench equipment. The boots and trench waders are actually rather cleaner than one might expect, so the photo may well have been taken at a place just behind the lines at a house at which they had been billeted.

All-in-all, it might just be in the fall of 1916.

6 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Which ones? Do you mean the ones referred to in the 'Remarks' column?

Yes; I wondered if those orders would shed some light on things.

[Andrew Upton]

3 minutes ago, Gary_G said:

Did you notice that one fellow had a badge on his collar? (Wish it was and the other insignia were clearer.)

I do have a question about the your suggestion that it's from mid /late 1916. The total lack of leaves on the vines and trees suggests early spring or late fall, rather than mid-year. You'll also notice the shutters are wide open and the window is only open a crack. Might be to permit the entry of light and a bit of ventilation without losing heat. Again; this suggests spring or fall. Could I ask why you eliminated spring 1916?

 

I had seen mention of the collar above - unfortunately as mentioned it is too blurred to be really certain of anything and collar badges based on the Maple leaf design were widely used by units of the CEF...

 

The soft caps give a very definite post-March 1916 date. Even then it is generally accepted that most soldiers did not even begin to see actual issue until a couple of months had passed and stocks had begun to build up, which in turn matches the period when helmets change from being regarded as trench stores to personal issue (and thus a cap which can be easily folded up and stored in a pack when not in use becomes increasingly important). It's not of course impossible that these five had managed to receive hot-off-the-press examples from the very first batch made, but the likelihood is it dates some time after. 

[Gary_G]

Andrew;

Thank you for the explanation.

 

I've started a spreadsheet in which I'm transcribing anything with a date from his service records. By consolidating the information and in key dates/observations from what has been noted so far, I may be able to eliminate certain time periods. All-in-all, September-October 1916 at a billet just behind the lines in France/Belgium seems to be looking like reasonable possibility. 

[Gary_G]

I'm almost done with entering the 90-some pages of data from his military files. There's a definite pattern. Now I've got to highlight just the times when he could have been on the lines and then cross-reference that to the battles of the units in which he served.