Royal Fusiliers Military Cross Awards to Warrant Officers

[SteveE]

Pals

 

A quick question with, hopefully, an easy answer.  I'm trying to identify a Warrant Officer awarded the Military Cross prior to serving with the 25th Bn. Royal Fusiliers.  It's a bit of an assumption but I'm starting from the possibility that this man was a Royal Fusilier prior to a transfer and was wondering if there is perhaps an easy way of getting a list of Royal Fusiliers Warrant Officers awarded the Military Cross?

 

Any help will be gratefully received.

 

Steve 

[Ivor Anderson]

Without a surname it will be a time-consuming search. I am not aware of a MC database searchable by regiment. In what context did this question come up?

This may be worth a wildcard search: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14593

Matter of working through the like of this for a Warrant Officer (assuming he earned it serving with the Royal Fusiliers):

https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/for-distinguished-meritorious-services-in-time-of-warthe-great-war-recipients-of-the-the-military-cross-1914-1920a-registerbritish-and-empire/

Edited 13 December , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[SteveE]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Without a surname it will be a time-consuming search. I am not aware of a MC database searchable by regiment. In what context did this question come up?

 

Hi Ivor

 

Many thanks for your reply, it was always going to be a long shot that there might have been an easily obtainable list and obviously an even longer shot that the Warrant Officer in question was even a Royal Fusilier in the first instance but I’ve got to start somewhere.

 

The context is one that’s niggled at me for a long while but I’ve never picked up on it to run with... there is a photo in Westlake’s book “Kitchener’s Armies” that shows a group of 25th Bn. Royal Fusiliers including a Second Lieutenant, a couple of warrant officers and a number of other ranks.  One of the W.Os. is sporting what appears to be a MC ribbon and, as I’m certain no 25th Bn. Warrant Officers were awarded the MC, I thought I’d try and tie him down.

 

it appears that it’s going to have to be the long and time consuming search of the MC registers in the first instance to see if that can narrow down a list of potential suspects.

 

Steve

[rflory]

The book Recipient of Bars to the Military Cross 1916-1920 by J V Webb: has a list of all MCs awarded to Warrant Officers during that period.  Below is a list of the Warrant Officers of the Royal Fusiliers in that list. None are attributed specifically to the 25th Battalion (most of the listing do not indicate the battalion). The names in the list are all those that are listed to the "Rl. Fus." without a specific battalion indicated (a few with battalions other than the 25th Bn listed are not included):

 

9109 CSM Armour, R  25 Aug 16

16776 CSM Bond TJ  11 Dec 16 (Bar as 2Lt, KRRC)

STK/929 CSM Chapman FS 16 Aug 17

G/6541 CSM Cliffe CR 3 Mar 17

7799 CSM Crabb TH 18 Feb 15

7479 CSM Fitterer 18 Jun 17

11585 SM Flack HA 20 Oct 16

2361 CSM High RC 13 Feb 17

10361 SM Huband F   3 Jun 18 (Bar 3 Sep 18; DCM 22 Jan 16)

L/5563 Keefe S 22 Jun 18

S/910 SM Keys FW 18 Jun 17

L/10909 CSM Mabbott R 1 Jan 18

Spts2046 CSM O'Donovan C 1 Jan 18

L/5458 CSM Pyne SE 16 Aug 17

10803 SM Savill H 23 Jun 15

2743 CSN Stratford HO 13 Feb 17

12625 CSM Sweeney E 22 Sep 16

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks. Before I look them up - Is this list just those who were awarded bars?

[Ron Clifton]

You have to bear in mind that 25th RF was raised by the Legion of Frontiersmen, and all its war service was spent in East Africa. It returned to the UK at the end of 1917 and was disbanded in June 1918. There is no guarantee whatsoever that anyone in it had previously served in the RF, or even in the Regular Army at all.

 

Ron

[rflory]

Ivor Anderson:  As indicated in my reply, the book lists MC with Bars, but also has a list of WOs who received the MC.  My list was derived from the list of WOs who received the MC (none received bars to the MC).

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks. Just double-checking before I look them up. It seemed strange to have a list of single MC recipients in a book about the 'MC & Bar'.

Battalion added in green:

9109 CSM Armour, R  25 Aug 16 (20th RF)

16776 CSM Bond TJ  11 Dec 16 (Bar as 2Lt, KRRC) (1st Bn.)

STK/929 CSM Chapman FS 16 Aug 17 (10th Bn.)

G/6541 CSM Cliffe CR 3 Mar 17 (13th Bn.)

7799 CSM Crabb Thomas Henry 18 Feb 15 (4th Bn. commissioned RF 14-2-1916) DoW 18 March 1916

7479 CSM Fitterer Philip John 18 Jun 17 (RF, no Bn. listed)

11585 RSM Flack HA 20 Oct 16 (1st Bn.)

2361 CSM High RC 13 Feb 17 (24th Bn.)

10361 SM Huband F   3 Jun 18 (Bar 3 Sep 18; DCM 22 Jan 16) (2nd Bn.)

L/5563 Keefe S 22 Jun 18 (7th Bn., later Labour Corps)

S/910 SM Keys FW 18 Jun 17 (13th Bn., later Labour Corps)

L/10909 CSM Mabbott R 1 Jan 18 (8th & 2nd RF, commissioned RF 5-4-1918)

Spts2046 CSM O'Donovan Charles 1 Jan 18 (24th Bn.)

L/5458 CSM Pyne Sidney Ernest 16 Aug 17 (22nd & 13th Bn - Medal roll)

10803 RSM Savill Harry 23 Jun 15 (4th Bn.)

2743 CSM Stratford Horace Oliver 13 Feb 17 (24th Bn. DoW 5-6-1916)

12625 CSM Sweeney Edward 22 Sep 16 (2nd Bn., MC for 1 July 1916)

Edited 13 December , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[SteveE]

3 hours ago, rflory said:

The book Recipient of Bars to the Military Cross 1916-1920 by J V Webb: has a list of all MCs awarded to Warrant Officers during that period.  Below is a list of the Warrant Officers of the Royal Fusiliers in that list. None are attributed specifically to the 25th Battalion (most of the listing do not indicate the battalion). The names in the list are all those that are listed to the "Rl. Fus." without a specific battalion indicated (a few with battalions other than the 25th Bn listed are not included):

Dick

 

Many thanks for the list, it’s very much appreciated but in this instance I think a list of all the Royal Fusiliers Warrant Officers awarded the MC, irrespective of which battalion they are listed with, is required.  I know for certain that no MC was awarded to a 25th Battalion Warrant Officer so this award must have been before he was transferred to the battalion.  As Ron says (and so did I in my OPs) there’s no guarantee that he was even a Royal Fusilier before but I have to start somewhere and there is some logic in my starting point (trust me).

 

I don’t know how big a task it is but if you could see your way to adding those with a battalion listed that would be a huge help.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[SteveE]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Thanks. Just double-checking before I look them up. It seemed strange to have a list of single MC recipients in a book about the 'MC & Bar'.

Battalion added in green:

<snip>

Ivor

 

Your help in adding the battalion to each of those on the list is appreciated, hopefully Dick will be able to add those with a battalion listed and I can have a look at those too.

 

At the moment my ‘gut feeling’ is that the photo is taken at Hounslow Heath sometime between March and August 1916 when the 25th Battalion had a Reserve Company forming there and a number of ‘senior’ Royal Fusiliers NCOs were used to bolster the unit there whilst in training so that’s my initial focus.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[SteveE]

4 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

You have to bear in mind that 25th RF was raised by the Legion of Frontiersmen, and all its war service was spent in East Africa. It returned to the UK at the end of 1917 and was disbanded in June 1918. There is no guarantee whatsoever that anyone in it had previously served in the RF, or even in the Regular Army at all.

 

Ron

Ron

 

Nothing you’ve said there is in question but this Warrant Officer had to have been awarded the MC whilst serving with someone other than the 25th Royal Fusiliers and I’ve got to start somewhere.  As I’ve stated in another post the 25th had a Reserve Company formed at Hounslow in 1916 that was bolstered with ‘senior’ RF NCOs whilst in training and at the moment my best guess is that he’s one of those men but again that is open to question.

 

Steve

[rflory]

Additions to the Royal Fusiliers WOs with the MC who had a battalion number listed:

 

G12191 CSM Balchin A W  11/Rl Fus 8 Mar 19, cit. 4 Oct 19 (also DCM 16 Jan 19

G/4159 QMS Hughes F  24/Rl Fus 3 Jun 18

L/8523 CSM Lawman J 24/Rl Fus 18 Feb 18, cit. 18 Jul 18

71748 CSM Mercer W C 7/Rl Fus 22 Jun 18

[Ivor Anderson]

14 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

You have to bear in mind that 25th RF was raised by the Legion of Frontiersmen, and all its war service was spent in East Africa. It returned to the UK at the end of 1917 and was disbanded in June 1918.

The above 4 MC awards are a bit late date wise given the above. From Medal Rolls:

Alfred Walter Balchin, 11th Bn., 

Frank Hughes, 12th, then 2nd, then 24th Bn., 

Jasper Lawman, 4th then 24th Bn.,

Walter Charles Mercer, 7th Bn.

[SteveE]

12 hours ago, rflory said:

Additions to the Royal Fusiliers WOs with the MC who had a battalion number listed:

 

G12191 CSM Balchin A W  11/Rl Fus 8 Mar 19, cit. 4 Oct 19 (also DCM 16 Jan 19

G/4159 QMS Hughes F  24/Rl Fus 3 Jun 18

L/8523 CSM Lawman J 24/Rl Fus 18 Feb 18, cit. 18 Jul 18

71748 CSM Mercer W C 7/Rl Fus 22 Jun 18

Dick

 

Many thanks once again for the additional names, on the face of it I think all these can be safely discounted as the dates of award are much too late for what I need. 

 

3 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The above 4 MC awards are a bit late date wise given the above. From Medal Rolls:

Alfred Walter Balchin, 11th Bn., 

Frank Hughes, 12th, then 2nd, then 24th Bn., 

Jasper Lawman, 4th then 24th Bn.,

Walter Charles Mercer, 7th Bn.

 

Ivor

 

Thanks for adding the additional battalion references and I agree, the awards are too late date wise.

 

 

Just for interest I've attached a crop of the man in question, this from Westlake's "Kitchener's Armies"....... 

 

[SteveE]

Just revisiting this one as I’ve had further confirmation that the time period is definitely March to July 1916 and was taken whilst the Reserve Company was at Hounslow Heath.  
Another clue I have just noticed is that the WO in question seemingly has black buttons on his tunic, does this suggest he’s an ex-rifleman perhaps?

Steve

Edited 1 August , 2022 by SteveE

[Ivor Anderson]

If he got the MC prior to July 1916 that whittles down the list of Royal Fusilier RSM/CSMs Dick transcribed for us above to (allowing time for citation to appear in LG):

9109 CSM Armour, R  25 Aug 16 (20th RF)

11585 RSM Flack HA 20 Oct 16 (1st Bn.)

10803 RSM Savill Harry 23 Jun 15 (4th Bn.)

12625 CSM Sweeney Edward 22 Sep 16 (2nd Bn., MC for 1 July 1916)

[Ivor Anderson]

Definitely looks like a 25th cap badge. It is said that the battalion included Boer War veterans:

Is there even a remote possibility that the ribbon in the photo could be a DCM rather than a MC? The recipient seems quite elderly to have got an MC in 1915-early 1916?

Edited 1 August , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

There is a possibility that a CSM/RSM gets a mention in the Battalion War Diary? Unless he was just in a training role at home:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/002ae55ef7c9492baccaf9276b9df5c3

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/bd5dea8cdf9d4c8081ff7641519f2731

Edited 1 August , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Many medal rolls to 25th Bn/ RF are in this range: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_636897_10889-00295?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=7e066874dcb270d8a94f27e6fe342568&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF544&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=4887152

Including:

Edited 1 August , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[SteveE]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

There is a possibility that a CSM/RSM gets a mention in the Battalion War Diary? Unless he was just in a training role at home:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/002ae55ef7c9492baccaf9276b9df5c3

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/bd5dea8cdf9d4c8081ff7641519f2731

Hi Ivor

The 25th RF Reserve Company was UK based only until its members were posted to East Africa in July and October 1916 and this WO is, I suspect, an old hand posted to the Reserve Company for training purposes only.  His lack of any other medals suggests he didn't serve in South Africa as per another suggestion. 

I suppose there could be a chance that the medal is a DCM though, I guess it depends on the vagaries of the film process used as to how each colour will show?

Regards

Steve

[Ivor Anderson]

40 minutes ago, SteveE said:

His lack of any other medals suggests he didn't serve in South Africa as per another suggestion. 

There were over 2000 DCMs awarded for South Africa 1899-1902. The Royal Fusiliers got 13, and one for Tibet 1903/4. It is possible that he was not in theatre long enough to qualify for a service medal, or that it was for a minor action somewhere in the Empire (like India) for which there was no service medal. It may still be a MC, with a narrow/early WW1 date range. The photo makes him look heavily tanned?

Edited 1 August , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

CSM Harry Savill 10803 of 4th Bn. RF got a MC in LG 23 June 1915: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29202/supplement/6121

No citation, but he was MiD in LG 20 October 1914 and 22 June 1915. He also got a DCM in 1917, still with 4th Bn. - so it's not him in the photo!

Edited 1 August , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[SteveE]

On 01/08/2022 at 19:43, Ivor Anderson said:

CSM Harry Savill 10803 of 4th Bn. RF got a MC in LG 23 June 1915: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29202/supplement/6121

No citation, but he was MiD in LG 20 October 1914 and 22 June 1915. He also got a DCM in 1917, still with 4th Bn. - so it's not him in the photo!

Ivor

Thanks for your assistance with this quest, it appears that the list of possible Royal Fusiliers MC winners has been exhausted without success.  I’m left wondering now whether the black buttons are a possible clue as to a former regimental identity.

Steve