Soldier who never served in Overseas

[Wesley Wright]

Which medals would he be entitled if never left Northern Ireland +Cwgc grace ?/

died of TB IN 1915.

[DavidOwen]

None.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

He could be entitled to CWGC commemoration even if he never left Northern Ireland,  if he died whilst serving in the armed services, or if he died after discharge of an illness that was deemed to have been caused or aggravated by such service. 

[RNCVR]

He might have a memorial plaque.

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

He might have a memorial plaque.

 

.........seems to be case. The following explanation is provided on the IWM website which confirms this possibility.

 

"Some of those recorded by plaques and scrolls were not eligible for service medals, for instance, those who did not serve overseas but who died in service through accident or illness. Deaths in the period 1919–1921 (possibly later) could still lead to the presentation of a plaque, if either still in service (and even from natural causes), or the death was accepted as war-related. It is thought that many British and Empire war dead had no plaques and scrolls issued, due to the inability by 1919–20 to trace addresses for the eligible next of kin – a result of the high incidence of short-term rented addresses, re-marriage, and that, if they died unmarried with parents dead, there might be no dependants claiming a pension."

 

Edited 9 December , 2020 by TullochArd

[RNCVR]

I think I read somewhere in the past that the memorial plaque was still being issued to n.o.k. in early 1920's, perhaps in British Battles & Medals, but I do recall a cutoff date\ year.   However as I am away from my reference books am unable to check until I return home on weekend.

 

I know I have seen memorial plaques without any medal entitlement in the past.

If someone does not come up with a definitive answer I will check that out & report...

[Wesley Wright]

 

Thanks for all your replies.

Wesley Wright

[hmsk212]

He may have been eligible for a Silver War Badge if he had been discharged prior to his death.

 

Steve

[TullochArd]

11 hours ago, hmsk212 said:

He may have been eligible for a Silver War Badge if he had been discharged prior to his death.

 

Yes.  LLT confirms this, as you rightly say, if he had been discharged prior to his death:  

"The badge was awarded to all of those military personnel who had served at home or overseas during the war, and who had been discharged from the army under King’s Regulations. Expiry of a normal term of engagement did not count and the most commonly seen reason for discharge and issue of the badge is KR is 392(xvi), meaning the soldier had been released on account of being permanently physically unfit. It was possible to be awarded a badge if the man had not served overseas – and if his service record is now lost this may be the only remaining evidence of service for such a soldier."

 

and in this particular case where the death was in 1915:

 

"It was also awarded in retrospect: that is, to men discharged in 1914 or 1915 who otherwise met the criteria."

 

The Death Certificate would perhaps settle this?

 

Edited 10 December , 2020 by TullochArd

[RNCVR]

On 09/12/2020 at 15:55, RNCVR said:

I think I read somewhere in the past that the memorial plaque was still being issued to n.o.k. in early 1920's, perhaps in British Battles & Medals, but I do recall a cutoff date\ year.   However as I am away from my reference books am unable to check until I return home on weekend.

 

I know I have seen memorial plaques without any medal entitlement in the past.

If someone does not come up with a definitive answer I will check that out & report...

 

I was unable to locate a memorial plaque cutoff date in either 'Medals Yearbook' or 'British Battles & Medals' vols.

[TullochArd]

3 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 

I was unable to locate a memorial plaque cutoff date in either 'Medals Yearbook' or 'British Battles & Medals' vols.

 

It perhaps boils down to entitlement. 

 

The Government Great War "end of conflict" date (and IWGC headstone entitlement date) was 31st August 1921.  Any attributable death before this date attracted recognition and therefore issue of a bronze memorial plaque ........... and after this none.  The fact that the manufacture of bronze memorial plaques was switched to Woolwich in 1920 suggests the scale of the backlog which apparently(?) was not resolved until the 1930's. 

 

So "entitled" NOK recipients received plaques well into the next decade but perhaps the "entitlement" to simply ceased at "end of conflict" date?  

 

 

Edited 11 December , 2020 by TullochArd

[Andrew Upton]

52 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

 

It perhaps boils down to entitlement. 

 

The Government Great War "end of conflict" date (and IWGC headstone entitlement date) was 31st August 1921.  Any attributable death before this date attracted recognition and therefore issue of a bronze memorial plaque ........... and after this none.  The fact that the manufacture of bronze memorial plaques was switched to Woolwich in 1920 suggests the scale of the backlog which apparently(?) was not resolved until the 1930's. 

 

So "entitled" NOK recipients received plaques well into the next decade but perhaps the "entitlement" to simply ceased at "end of conflict" date?  

 

Plaques were still being issued to some casualties who died of causes attributable to the war but still well after the 1921 CWGC cut-off date (possibly as late as 1930). The website linked below actually has details on two post-1921 British casualty plaques one after the other, about two thirds of the way down the page. The first is named to G/18434 Pte. Malcolm Douglas Crawfurth-Smith, 2nd Bn. Royal Sussex Regt, who died in the USA on the 1st March 1922. The second is named to 4/3282 AB Ernest Lawrence Cooke RNVR, Late of the Collingwood Bn., who died on the 13th April 1926:

 

http://www.jackclegg.com/Plaques.htm

 

 

[TullochArd]

14 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Plaques were still being issued to some casualties who died of causes attributable to the war but still well after the 1921 CWGC cut-off date (possibly as late as 1930). The website linked below actually has details on two post-1921 British casualty plaques one after the other, about two thirds of the way down the page. The first is named to G/18434 Pte. Malcolm Douglas Crawfurth-Smith, 2nd Bn. Royal Sussex Regt, who died in the USA on the 1st March 1922. The second is named to 4/3282 AB Ernest Lawrence Cooke RNVR, Late of the Collingwood Bn., who died on the 13th April 1926:

 

http://www.jackclegg.com/Plaques.htm

 

 

 

........ looking good. Most interesting.

[BullerTurner]

What on earth was a Pte from the 2nd Royal Sussex doing there?  I could understand an Army Remount Service guy but??  Standpoint was a forestry area and produc3d forestry troops for the USA Corps of Engineers but they weren’t trained there...so I doubt that’s it.  Nor, being lakeside was it likely he was at a sanitarium...

 

This is precisely why I love this web-site!  It challenges our perception that the Great War was a homogenised experience, home front or abroad.

[BullerTurner]

Intrigued I popped over to the CWGC.  Doesn’t appear to be a record of the luckless Pte Crawfurth-Smith...which given all the info we have (name rank and number) is a tad off.  Could he have been a sanatorium patient?

 

I have learned Sandpoint is the hometown of Sarah Palin...

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, BullerTurner said:

Intrigued I popped over to the CWGC.  Doesn’t appear to be a record of the luckless Pte Crawfurth-Smith..

There wouldn't be, as he died after the cut off date of August 31st 1921, as previously mentioned.

[BullerTurner]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

There wouldn't be, as he died after the cut off date of August 31st 1921, as previously mentioned.

Darn! Of course, I was conflating plaques with CWGC!  You could get a plaque even if you died after 31 August ‘21; if your death was war related or for various continued service reasons...

 

I was tired.  I needed my supper. 😉

[helpjpl]

On 11/12/2020 at 22:40, Andrew Upton said:

 

Plaques were still being issued to some casualties who died of causes attributable to the war but still well after the 1921 CWGC cut-off date (possibly as late as 1930). The website linked below actually has details on two post-1921 British casualty plaques one after the other, about two thirds of the way down the page. The first is named to G/18434 Pte. Malcolm Douglas Crawfurth-Smith, 2nd Bn. Royal Sussex Regt, who died in the USA on the 1st March 1922. The second is named to 4/3282 AB Ernest Lawrence Cooke RNVR, Late of the Collingwood Bn., who died on the 13th April 1926:

 

http://www.jackclegg.com/Plaques.htm

 

 

Malcolm Douglas Crawfurth Smith:

 

1. Birth registered Jul-Sep 1899 at Steyning, Sussex.

 

2. Son of civil engineer/architect Henry Vaughan Crawfurth Smith and his wife Clarissa Maud nee Roworth.

 

3. Malcolm/Douglas went to Canada in 1920 to 'settle there' and work as a 'farm hand' (Canada Ocean Arrivals courtesy of ancestry):

 

4.  Idaho Death Record (courtesy of ancestry):

 

5.  findagrave:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/77438918/douglas-malcolm_crawfurth-smith

 

6.  Andrews Newspaper Index 02 March 1942 (courtesy of ancestry):

 

 

Note:  

Malcolm's father - Henry Vaughan Crawfurth Smith - served with the Royal Engineers in WW1, going overseas 25 January 1917, and gaining the rank of captain (MIC):

 

a.  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29306/supplement/9418/data.pdf

 

b.  https://www.dia.ie/architects/view/5047/Smith-henryvaughanCrawfurth

 

JP

[BullerTurner]

All makes sense now.