Private Thomas William Hassall

[jiffer68]

My grandfather Thomas William Hassall born June 1893 Florence Longton Staffordshire.

Looking for anything on his service, where he served, what he did, anything at all.

He lived in Canada when WW1 started and was rejected by the Canadian Expeditionary Force for I believe having flat feet.

He hitched a ride back to England on a cattle ship and joined the British army in 1914, discharged in 1919.

He had 2 regimental numbers on his medal card, T4/035821 ASC and 518918.

I was able to come across another paper that states he was part of 797 area employment coy labour corps.

What was this company responsible for ? where did they serve ? 

His rank was driver, for horses I believe.

Any information would be greatly appreciated !!

[HTSCF Fareham]

Courtesy of Forces War Records

 

[Woodnbits]

According to this link on Find My Past

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM/SILVERWAR/BADGES/750464

You might find a scan of the roll on Ancestry

 

He enlisted 16/12/1914

Discharged 11/03/1919 Sickness Para 392 xvia

A quick search returns (Surplus to military requirements (having suffered impairment since entry into the service))

 

Tim

[Mark1959]

There are some imperial war gratuity papers that show he was also 92765 Middlesex regiment. May 1916 to March 1918. Papers show working in Nova Scotia before war.

Edited 1 December , 2020 by Mark1959

[jiffer68]

I managed to find this

 

Dec 1914 to May 1916 - ASC #2 Reserve Depot Park Royal (T4/035821)

May 1916 to March 1918 - 16th Battalion Middlesex Regiment(92765)

March 1918 to March 1919 - 797 Area Employment Co Labour Corps (518918)

 

Why does the 92765 Regimental number not show up on the medal roll ? if you search 92765 on Ancestry is comes up with a different soldier. Can 2 soldiers have the same number ???

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, jiffer68 said:

Why does the 92765 Regimental number not show up on the medal roll ?

Medal Rolls & Medal Index Cards were for just that purpose - for the issue of medals.

They originated from info from the relevant regiments(s) and then moved to the relevant Medal Office and thus to those who impressed the medals with the relevant details.

So frequently just the relevant numbers were used thereon [First in theatre (not necessarily first served with) and last served with (who were normally responsible for the Medal Roll)] - and thus were not a full service history/record

[Sometimes/quite frequently other regiments/corps were added, but not necessarily in the correct order! - others not recorded in Hassall's case]

The real trick came elsewhere in correctly tallying up all the Regimental Numbers for a man's full Service Record!

[Mixed up service records and similar mixed references in other records can now be still be found].

 

9 hours ago, jiffer68 said:

Can 2 soldiers have the same number ???

Yes - Early in the war the Regimental Number system allowed for multiple identical numbers as several regiments in the Army could all use the same ones - so it was possible that each could have their own 1, 12, 103, 1004, 10005 etc. [and all the rest!] - resulting in several of each across the whole Army.

A quick search of MIC on Ancestry, as you have no doubt similarly noted, reveals four 92765 [none of which show Hassall or the Middlesex Regiment]

This multiplicity of Regimental Numbers was often a source of great confusion when later finding & identifying bodies on a battlefield as both number and regiment was required for identification [not always easy if the same battlefield was fought over by regiments that each had the same numbers and given the circumstances/outcomes of warfare] and for all the varied military administration purposes

[Didn't help a soldier much either as, if a man changed his regiment/was posted elsewhere, he also changed his Regimental Number - as you can see from the record above. And likewise hindered living and bereaved next of kin who often quoted the old one(s) rather than the then current/last - but that's an aside to your question]

Later there was a move to a system of Service Numbers to try and avoid potential confusion and to simplify identification & administration both on and off the battlefield.

[Akin to the modern one of unique Personal Numbers that many more recent old soldiers/sailors/airmen can still reel off in their sleep, "########, Sir!" - another aside!!]

;-) M

Edited 2 December , 2020 by Matlock1418
expand/clarify points

[sotonmate]

Your form says transfer to 16 Middlesex in March 1918. 16 Middlesex were disbanded in France in Feb 1918 according to the Long Long Trail here.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, sotonmate said:

Your form says transfer to 16 Middlesex in March 1918. 16 Middlesex were disbanded in France in Feb 1918 according to the Long Long Trail here.

 

     This is a recurrent problem for the disbanded battalions of early 1918.  Men "transferred" from disbanded battalions might not have been recorded as being with another battalion but merely attached.  16th Middlesex is a particular problem- Something around a company strength were transferred to 2nd Middlesex but do not seem to figure in that battalion's war diary. I have a local casualty,Captain Duncan Beresford Tuck, who was transferred, died of wounds in March 1918 but seems to have disappeared. His arrival is noted in 2 MR war diary:

 

 

     His death, unlike the fate of other officers, is not.

 

Similarly, 13th Essex were disbanded and a goodly chunk (more than a company) went off to 1/28 Londons-Artists Rifles. Again, the fate of them after "disbandment" does not seem to be recorded in the 1/28 Londons war diary.   13th Essex had some "casualties"  on CWGC after being notionally disbanded.  4 of these have graves in Germany-so it seems  that POWs still existed in the battalions with which they were captured-which much have been an administrative nightmare on return. It does suggest that transfers on disbandment in January/February 1918 were of actual officers and men on strength only.   Thus, for those away from battalions at disbandment, they continued to be borne on the books -literally-of their old regiments- that is, a disbanded battalion still remained "live" if only in a ledger held by some clerk in a regimental/command area office. I could see that the man above-discharged as unfit- could have been with 16th Middlesex when he first went off "Tom and Dick" and,thus, was never borne on the strength of another battalion.

   

    It seems to me that -for administrative purposes only- many men from disbanded battalions were not "fully integrated" into other units.  This distorts considerably what happened during the German offensives of 1918

[sotonmate]

V

 

Quite a fragmentation occurred ! The 16s War Diary for Feb 1918 :

3rd:ordered to disband,

8th: 14 Off/275 ORanks to 18 Middlesex at Wizernes, 7 Off/150 ORanks to 2 Middlesex at Winnizeele,

9th: 14 Off/274 ORanks to 20 Middlesex at Achiet,

11th: Transport 1 Off/46 ORanks to Nine Elms Camp, HQ and details 3 Off/55 ORanks to VIII Corps. Disbandment complete.

 

[jiffer68]

4 hours ago, sotonmate said:

Your form says transfer to 16 Middlesex in March 1918. 16 Middlesex were disbanded in France in Feb 1918 according to the Long Long Trail here.

 

Dec 1914 to May 1916 - ASC #2 Reserve Depot Park Royal (T4/035821)

May 1916 to March 1918 - 16th Battalion Middlesex Regiment(92765)

March 1918 to March 1919 - 797 Area Employment Co Labour Corps (518918)