Trench Map Cambrai December 1917

[PhilipCooper]

I'm trying to track down a Trench map from the Battle of Cambrai 1917 period.

 

I'm trying to work on the precise location of 2/5th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment the 3rd December.

 

The war diaries say they were in the trenches NE of La Vacquerie at position

(B company trenches)  R16 B65 to R16 B47.

(A & C companies in shell holes) R16 C65 to R16 to C50.

 

My Great great Uncle was a platoon sergeant probably with A or C company and was killed in action on the 3rd when the companies made an attack on the German Trenches only to run into heavy resistance due to them forming up for their own attack.

 

I'd also be interested to know which German Regiments they were facing.

 

[brianmorris547]

Philip

The December 1917 WD of 182 Infantry Brigade 61 Div (Ancestry under Various Infantry Brigades - 61 Div) has two maps showing the positions of the Bns on pages 1000/1056 and 1034/1056. The one on page 1000 is 06/12/1917 and follows a narrative of the operations carried out by the Brigade

Brian

 

Edited 28 November , 2020 by brianmorris547
additional info

[WhiteStarLine]

1 hour ago, PhilipCooper said:

NE of La Vacquerie at position

(B company trenches)  R16 B65 to R16 B47.

(A & C companies in shell holes) R16 C65 to R16 to C50

Here you go, B company is in the trenches (NE corner of green rectangle).  A&C are in shell holes just outside la Vacquerie itself.  The map is from Nov 1917 so quite close.  Click to enlarge.

 

[Michelle Young]

The A26 motorway is basically on the position of the Hindenburg Line, which is an inconvenience to say the least! Last November, I walked from La Vacquerie up to Pam Pam farm, the minor road over the motorway is navigable. 

Michelle 

[PhilipCooper]

Because their positions were so close where the autoroute des anglais is now I'm surprised no remains have turned up. All officers and NCOs from both companies were killed along with heavy casualties among the other ranks.

 

Most are remembered on the Cambrai Memorial because they have no known grave.

[PRC]

According to Geoffs’ Search Engine, the CWGC records 44 men of the 2/5th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment as having died on the 3rd December 1917.

 

Most but not quite all are remembered on the Cambrai Memorial.

 

Private 28584 (late 1752) George Henry Shaw, Royal Warwicks, was recovered from the battlefield post-war (late 1920/early 1921) and now lies in Fifteen Ravine British Cemetery, Villers-Plouich.

 

He was found at map reference Sheet 57c R.11.B.4.6 and there was no marker. He now rests in grave 7.A.19.

 

The same concentration report shows that Grave 7.A.18 contains the grave of an Unknown British Soldier of the Royal Warwicks. Of course he could have belonged to any Battalion of the Royal Warwick and could have died at any point in the war. He was found at Sheet 57c R.10.A.5.6. A second unknown Royal Warwicks man was found at the same reference and now lies in grave 6.D.15.

Neither battlefield grave had a marker.

 

Given the nature of war, if many of the others died in and around the German trenches then they may well have ended up in a mass grave. Probably marked at the time, it’s location may subsequently have been lost. However a quick run through the International Committee of the Red Cross website for a few of the less common surnames doesn’t even show any I.D Tags being received by the Central German Office that passed such information on.

 

There is a couple of cards raised for the ICRC in connection with Private 235023 Solly Rothblatt as a result of missing person enquiries from the family. He is shown as serving with 9th Platoon, “C” Company and missing since the 3rd December 1917 France. In both cases the ICRC would reply “Negatif envoye” – they had heard nothing – once on the 11th July 1918 and again on the 10th September 1918.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/237590/3/2/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 29 November , 2020 by PRC
Someone couldn't spell Committee :-)

[PhilipCooper]

31 minutes ago, PRC said:

Given the nature of war, if many of the others died in and around the German trenches then they may well have ended up in a mass grave. Probably marked at the time, it’s location may subsequently have been lost. However a quick run through the International Connittee of the Red Cross website for a few of the less common surnames doesn’t even show any I.D Tags being received by the Central German Office that passed such information.

 

Thanks for the information. Hadn't even considered what the procedure was when recovering bodies from opposing sides of the conflict.

 

I believe I read something about British I.D discs being prone to disintegration after only a short time in the ground making the body identification impossible before DNA testing. Also bodies stranded out in No Mans Land were torn up and destroyed by artillery.

 

 

[PRC]

4 hours ago, PhilipCooper said:

I believe I read something about British I.D discs being prone to disintegration after only a short time in the ground making the body identification impossible before DNA testing.

 

The concentration reports make for fascinating if grisly reading. Bodies identified from correspondence, service numbers stamped on spoons, initials on a wristwatch and more. Which does of course beg the question whether the individual concerned had begged, borrowed or stolen said items and so the wrong man has been identified. I've also come across the odd couple identified from dental patterns. But all credit to the Imperial War Graves Commission, the predecessor of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. They did what they could with the technology and data available at the time. A good indicator that the body was buried by neither side is when 2 x ID tags were recovered with the body - the intention was that one would be removed and forwarded on to the relevant office.

 

On the German side you will find long "Death Lists" in the ICRC archive of tags taken from dead British Empire soldiers, usually from an unknown German Army unit or a Sanitation Company on the Western Front, and all usually with the same note that no further information was available.

 

5 hours ago, PRC said:

He was found at map reference Sheet 57c R.11.B.4.6 and there was no marker.

 

Hopefully one of the map afficianados can indicate where that was.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 29 November , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[PhilipCooper]

George Henry Shaw's body location would put him around the German trenches maybe even the support trenches if I'm reading the positions right 

 

The unknown Warwickshire Soldier was found far north of the 2/5th positions so like you said probably came from a different Battalion or different part of the war or both.

[WhiteStarLine]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

indicate where that was

Click to enlarge:

[PhilipCooper]

That was a lot further into the German positions than I thought. Make me think that Shaw's body had been recovered by the Germans. 

 

According to the war diary they were to attack the trenches at R16 D that the 2/4th Gloucesters lost. During the 3rd it mentions contact with this Battalions advance company in the Vacant Alley, which is south east of La Vacquerie.

[Guest]

Hi Philip

I have only just picked up your post regarding the 2/5th R. Warks. R and their action on the 3rd December 1917.

I too had a great uncle who was killed on that day and was a Private in the 2/5th Warks. His name is on the Cambrai Memorial at Louverval.

My understanding is that none of the Royal Warwickshire battalions took part in the actual battle of Cambrai on the 30th of November, but became heavily involved in the German counter attack during the first three days of December 1917.  The only trenches my great uncle experienced during this counter attack were in the vicinity of La Vacquerie. 

I believe he was killed just after dawn along with the rest of his Company,  on the North Eastern outskirts of the village.

I am new to this forum and have joined as a result of seeing your post with the hope this information is useful to your research

Cheers  Pete P

[Michelle Young]

@PhilipCoopervisited the forum quite recently, so I hope that my tagging him will alert him to your post Pete.

 

 

[Guest]

Thanks Michelle

It worked!

 

[PhilipCooper]

6 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

@PhilipCoopervisited the forum quite recently, so I hope that my tagging him will alert him to your post Pete.

 

 

Thank you Michelle and hi Pete.

 

My great uncle was Stanley George Cooper, born in Kidderminster Worcestershire, but moved to Smethwick with his wife and daughter.

 

He was a Sergeant with the 2/5th Battalion but I'm not sure with which company. Just like Pete's Uncle he was among the companies deployed to help stop the German Counter attack in the later part of the Battle of Cambrai.

 

He was killed in action on the 3rd December when they attacked against concentrated German forces who were preparing their for their own attack.

 

He is among the missing remembered at the Cambrai memorial.

[Mike Seller]

Philip I have just joined the Forum and found your post after searching for topics concerning La Vacquerie and the German attacks on 2nd and 3rd December 1917. My Grandfather served with the 2/6th Gloucester Reg and was wounded on the 2nd in trenches east of the village. Over the years I have collected a lot of information regarding this battle and have made several visits to the area. To answer your question which German Regiments were involved the official publication for Military Operations confirms the 11/40th Fusiliers and 111/110th Grenadiers (28th Div) led the attack upon La Vacquerie.  If anyone has any information on the 2/6th Glos for this period I will be pleased to hear from you. The 2/6th suffered considerable losses during the battle and were disbanded a few weeks later.

[Michelle Young]

@PhilipCooper was last on the forum in May last year. Hopefully, my tag will alert  him ( again)

[Mike Seller]

This drawing taken from the Official History of the War book IWM (Military Operations France/Belgium 1917) shows the British front line on the morning 2nd December  east of La Vacquerie and the new line  to the west of the village on the morning 6th December.