Penal Servitude

[Tony Ferguson]

14606 James Symington (8 RSF) was sentenced by a Field Court Martial to 10 years Penal Servitude in Oct 1917. Reading through some related threads on GWF, I am concluding that the sentence would have been conducted in a Civil prison? Any ideas on where, given he was in a Scottish regiment?

TIA

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

If a soldier was convicted of a civil

offence by a civil court he would be detained in a civil prison.

 

As he was convicted by a Military court he would’ve served his sentence in a Military Prison - or if in UK possibly in a wing of a civil prison solely dedicated to the detention of convicted Military Prisoners and staffed by Military Provost Staff.

 

This topic may give you a better insight.

 

Steve

 

 

Edited 16 November , 2020 by tullybrone

[FROGSMILE]

There was a limit to the length of sentences served in military prisons.  For lengthier sentences (such as 10-years) men were automatically discharged in disgrace (reduced to the ranks first if an NCO) and then dispatched to a civilian prison to serve out their term.

 

NB.  There were District Military Prisons distributed throughout Britain and Ireland (Home Establishment) and equivalents in all the large garrisons overseas.  From memory these were used for sentences up to 2-years that could not be served in detention barracks and detention rooms (guardroom cells) where sentences up to 28-days were served.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/286450-researching-the-military-prisons-and-detention-barracks-prior-to-1901/?tab=comments#comment-2952146

 

Edited 16 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Tony Ferguson]

37 minutes ago, MrSwan said:

In the period up to and including the Great War there was a distinction in sentencing policy resulting in imprisonment for up to two years in what were described as local prisons, or penal servitude for a minimum of three years in the convict prisons. 

 

Military prisons such as Woking were the equivalent of the civil local prisons but there are examples of the military authorities sending the soldier to his local civil prison.

 

Whether or not he was convicted of a military or civil offence, with a sentence of ten years' penal servitude your man would have been sent to one of Dartmoor, Portland, Parkhurst, Camp Hill (Isle of Wight) or Maidstone. As a dishonourable discharge would be mandatory with such a sentence, he may have served time in a military prison until his discharge came through, but this is a severe sentence and I suggest he would probably have gone directly to the convict prison.

 

I have written about this in my "Law and War: Magistrates in the Great War" (Pen & Sword, 2016)

 

Edit: My research has focussed on the legal system of England and Wales.  I believe there was a convict prison at Peterhead in Scotland so your man may have gone there.

Many thanks to you all for your responses- very helpful and interesting. As an Ulsterman in a Scottish regiment, might he have been sent to Crumlin Rd in Belfast? Or is Peterhead more likely? Any suggestions on how I might find out which prison he went to?

Many thx

 

[FROGSMILE]

Belfast and Dublin had the main convict prisons I think, Crumlin and Kilmainham.

[corisande]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Crumlin and Kilmainham.

 

A number of the men I have researched have been sent to Mountjoy.

 

The Prison Registers for Kilmainham & Mountjoy are available online inn FmP

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

A number of the men I have researched have been sent to Mountjoy.

 

The Prison Registers for Kilmainham & Mountjoy are available online inn FmP

 

Yes of course, I confess that Mountjoy slipped my mind corisande.  I'm sure that that prison held civilian convicts too, as you say.

[corisande]

And of course the British moved British Army prisoners from Irish "civilian" gaols to English gaols in late 1921 before the British withdrawal from Ireland.

 

Liverpool seemed to be a prison of choice for the transfer.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

And of course the British moved British Army prisoners from Irish "civilian" gaols to English gaols in late 1921 before the British withdrawal from Ireland.

 

Liverpool seemed to be a prison of choice for the transfer.

That’s interesting corisande.  My perception of that is that even with the District Military Prisons (one per military administrative ‘district’) that existed since the 1840s, there were never enough places (I’ve never learned why), and that additional facilities were achieved by opening military wings in civilian prisons, but did not revert to the pre-1840s policy of dispersing military prisoners among the general prison population.  That has made me wonder if perhaps Kilmainham was one of those prisons where a military wing was opened (another was Brixton).

Edited 16 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Tony Ferguson]

On 16/11/2020 at 17:13, MrSwan said:

Just out of interest I've had a quick look at Courts Martial Registers on Fold3 and Symington appears twice - on 16 July 1917 he was convicted of quitting his post and was sentenced to death. He then appears on 12 November when his sentence was commuted to ten years penal servitude, with the offence marked as desertion.

 

The references are WO213/15 page 329 and WO213/18 page 17.

 

 

Thanks. I checked those references out on Fold3 but the J Symington is an Aussie in the AIF. Not our man who was in the RSF

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Here's some Australians who were sentenced to 10 years or more;

 

BROWN    Robert    1386    Pte    05 LHR    11R NTOS FGCM 23-1-16 AWoL sentenced 18 months HL to 25Bn 2-17 FGCM deserted sentence PS life reduced 10 years PS to 2 years HL to 5 Military Prison F&B FGCM 8-12-19 AWoL sentenced 9 months HL to Norwich Prison disch 13-3-20 SNLR 

 

BURROWS    Stanley    1688    Pte    05 LHR    11R Tos 12-15 to Gnr 51Bty/13 FAB 3-16 to V5A HTMB 7-16 FGCM 29-12-16 deserted sentenced 1 year HL rtn 4-17 to 114Bty/14 FAB 8-17 FGCM 5-6-18 deserted sentenced 10 years PS reduced to 2 years HL to No 5 Military Prison to HM Norwich Prison to Wormwood Scrubs F&B

 

COLE    William    35    Pte    15Bn    BHQ Transport remain Egypt to 1Co1Bn ICC 1-16 to Cpl 2-16 to 4 trg Bn UK 8-16 rtn DCo/15Bn (35a) 5-17 WIA 12-6-17 R/shoulder shot at Messines WIA 8-11-17 hand accident SIW FGCM 20-2-18 sentenced loss of rank and days pay FGCM 30-8-18 Desertion sentenced 10 years PS reduced to 2 years HL in UK prison F&B released 18-6-19 disch loss of medals (DCo/4 IR 4 years to Remts 2 years CMF later WWII VDC) 

 

HUMPHRIES    Phillip James    2337    Pte    6 LHR    16R Tos A Sqn 8-16 to RHQ 8-17 att 2 LH Bde HQ 9-17 rtn 1-18 FGCM 8-4-18 for murder of Mahomed Ali Kagi sentenced penal service for life to Citadel prison 4-18 disch 22-10-19 SNLR forfitt all medals
 

KING    William    1373    Pte    13 LHR    7R Tos C Sqn 2-16 to 5 Div Cav 3-16 to 2 Anzac LHR 8-16 att APM 2 Anzac Corps 8-16 att NZ Div 4-17 att IIIV Corps 5-17 att salvage party 25 Div 6-17 to 14Bn 10-17 FGCM 20-12-17 deserted 21-10-17 to 24-10-17 sentenced 10 years PS comutted to 2 years HL to No 4 Military Prison Abancourt 1-18 sentenced remitted disch from No 3 Military Prison Havre 1-19 F&B
 

TRAVERS    Edward Horace    1318    Pte    03 LHR    9R tos C Sqn 11-15 (G) att WFF att 160 Bde HQ 1-16 to AATD UK 7-16 to 15 MG Co 1-17 WIA 26-9-17 L/hand accident (SIW) at Polygon Wood to 57Bn 12-17 reported MIA 5-4-18 FGCM 23-5-18 deserted sentenced 10 years PS to No 1 Military Prison Rouen 6-18 commuted 2 years HL 7-18 released rtn 57Bn 4-19 F&B
 

ROBINSON    Edward    1732    Pte    10 LHR    11R Tos 6-16 to 2/Cpl 7-16 to 3 LH Field Troop 2-17 to Cpl 9-17 FGCM 6-2-18 Murder reported (accident or mental break) killed Pte Bernard McKenzie and wounded Spr Kenning on 20-1-18 at Belah sentenced PS for life RTA as prisoner to finish sentence reported released from prison 23-3-20 disch SNLR forfit medals Ex 10 LHR 4 months disch

 

WARNER    William George    814    Pte    9 LHR    2R Tos A Sqn? 5-15 (G) to 3 LHTR 3-16 to Arty Dtls 5-16 to 16Bn (814a) 5-16 reported MIA 11-4-17 at Reincourt - Bullecourt FGCM 5-10-17 deserted at Bullecourt 11-4-17 sentenced PS life to 4 Military Prison reduced to 2 years HL rtn 5-18 FGCM AWol 17-10-18 sentenced 2 years HL to 5 Military prison 11-18 to Pentonville prison UK 6-19 F&B RTA as prisoner SNLR forfit medals AKA real name William James Vivian Harris
 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 20 November , 2020 by stevebecker

[Tony Ferguson]

On 20/11/2020 at 21:07, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

Here's some Australians who were sentenced to 10 years or more;

 

BROWN    Robert    1386    Pte    05 LHR    11R NTOS FGCM 23-1-16 AWoL sentenced 18 months HL to 25Bn 2-17 FGCM deserted sentence PS life reduced 10 years PS to 2 years HL to 5 Military Prison F&B FGCM 8-12-19 AWoL sentenced 9 months HL to Norwich Prison disch 13-3-20 SNLR 

 

BURROWS    Stanley    1688    Pte    05 LHR    11R Tos 12-15 to Gnr 51Bty/13 FAB 3-16 to V5A HTMB 7-16 FGCM 29-12-16 deserted sentenced 1 year HL rtn 4-17 to 114Bty/14 FAB 8-17 FGCM 5-6-18 deserted sentenced 10 years PS reduced to 2 years HL to No 5 Military Prison to HM Norwich Prison to Wormwood Scrubs F&B

 

COLE    William    35    Pte    15Bn    BHQ Transport remain Egypt to 1Co1Bn ICC 1-16 to Cpl 2-16 to 4 trg Bn UK 8-16 rtn DCo/15Bn (35a) 5-17 WIA 12-6-17 R/shoulder shot at Messines WIA 8-11-17 hand accident SIW FGCM 20-2-18 sentenced loss of rank and days pay FGCM 30-8-18 Desertion sentenced 10 years PS reduced to 2 years HL in UK prison F&B released 18-6-19 disch loss of medals (DCo/4 IR 4 years to Remts 2 years CMF later WWII VDC) 

 

HUMPHRIES    Phillip James    2337    Pte    6 LHR    16R Tos A Sqn 8-16 to RHQ 8-17 att 2 LH Bde HQ 9-17 rtn 1-18 FGCM 8-4-18 for murder of Mahomed Ali Kagi sentenced penal service for life to Citadel prison 4-18 disch 22-10-19 SNLR forfitt all medals
 

KING    William    1373    Pte    13 LHR    7R Tos C Sqn 2-16 to 5 Div Cav 3-16 to 2 Anzac LHR 8-16 att APM 2 Anzac Corps 8-16 att NZ Div 4-17 att IIIV Corps 5-17 att salvage party 25 Div 6-17 to 14Bn 10-17 FGCM 20-12-17 deserted 21-10-17 to 24-10-17 sentenced 10 years PS comutted to 2 years HL to No 4 Military Prison Abancourt 1-18 sentenced remitted disch from No 3 Military Prison Havre 1-19 F&B
 

TRAVERS    Edward Horace    1318    Pte    03 LHR    9R tos C Sqn 11-15 (G) att WFF att 160 Bde HQ 1-16 to AATD UK 7-16 to 15 MG Co 1-17 WIA 26-9-17 L/hand accident (SIW) at Polygon Wood to 57Bn 12-17 reported MIA 5-4-18 FGCM 23-5-18 deserted sentenced 10 years PS to No 1 Military Prison Rouen 6-18 commuted 2 years HL 7-18 released rtn 57Bn 4-19 F&B
 

ROBINSON    Edward    1732    Pte    10 LHR    11R Tos 6-16 to 2/Cpl 7-16 to 3 LH Field Troop 2-17 to Cpl 9-17 FGCM 6-2-18 Murder reported (accident or mental break) killed Pte Bernard McKenzie and wounded Spr Kenning on 20-1-18 at Belah sentenced PS for life RTA as prisoner to finish sentence reported released from prison 23-3-20 disch SNLR forfit medals Ex 10 LHR 4 months disch

 

WARNER    William George    814    Pte    9 LHR    2R Tos A Sqn? 5-15 (G) to 3 LHTR 3-16 to Arty Dtls 5-16 to 16Bn (814a) 5-16 reported MIA 11-4-17 at Reincourt - Bullecourt FGCM 5-10-17 deserted at Bullecourt 11-4-17 sentenced PS life to 4 Military Prison reduced to 2 years HL rtn 5-18 FGCM AWol 17-10-18 sentenced 2 years HL to 5 Military prison 11-18 to Pentonville prison UK 6-19 F&B RTA as prisoner SNLR forfit medals AKA real name William James Vivian Harris
 

Cheers

 

S.B

Steve

Many thanks for your input which is much appreciated. What does F&B mean? SNLR?
It seems in all cases (even for murder) sentences were reduced and the soldier discharged within 2 years...

Cheers

 

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

SNLR acronym will the reason for his discharge from AIF =  Services No Longer Required.

 

Cant help with F&B though.

 

Steve

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Yes Service no longer Required

 

The F&B is France and Belgium, this is to difference the Light Horse men who served in Egypt and Palestine from France and Belgium.

 

The other you must have picked up, like - you can guess the rest-

 

FG CM Field general Court Mar-

PS Penal S-

HL hard lab-

NTOS not taken on streng-

RTA Return to Aust-

APM Aust Provest Marsh-

 

Cheers

S.B

Edited 25 November , 2020 by stevebecker

[Tony Ferguson]

19 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

Yes Service no longer Required

 

The F&B is France and Belgium, this is to difference the Light Horse men who served in Egypt and Palestine from France and Belgium.

 

The other you must have picked up, like - you can guess the rest-

 

FG CM Field general Court Mar-

PS Penal S-

HL hard lab-

NTOS not taken on streng-

RTA Return to Aust-

APM Aust Provest Marsh-

 

Cheers

S.B

 

19 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

Yes Service no longer Required

 

The F&B is France and Belgium, this is to difference the Light Horse men who served in Egypt and Palestine from France and Belgium.

 

The other you must have picked up, like - you can guess the rest-

 

FG CM Field general Court Mar-

PS Penal S-

HL hard lab-

NTOS not taken on streng-

RTA Return to Aust-

APM Aust Provest Marsh-

 

Cheers

S.B

Steve

Many thanks for your input which is much appreciated. What does F&B mean? SNLR?
It seems in all cases (even for murder) sentences were reduced and the soldier discharged within 2 years...

Cheers

Many thanks Steve.

I had managed to work out the rest but the F&B had me flummoxed. I wouldnt have been much use in Bletchley Park!