Photo. Surrender of Jerusalem 9/12 17, Copyrights??

[20th Division]

I would like to use a copy of the famous photo " The surrender of Jerusalem 9th Dec 1917. Mayor of Jerusalem with a white flag surrendering to 2 British Tommies". Does anyone know if there Is  a copy right on this photo which will restrict how it can be used??  I am ignorant of the law on using or re-using photos and  have been told that "--you can't do that"--? I was hoping to use it in a small booklet that I am writing for family use only. I have no intentions of "selling" it when completed. I had a Gt Uncle in the 60th division and the "booklet" is my attempt to write his story which finishes at the capture of Jerusalem and this photo will finish it off nicely. Thanks. Dave

Edited 15 October , 2020 by 20th Division
final sentence added.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Is it this one?:

https://images.app.goo.gl/2D4cKixV57CEjffo6

 

If you look online, there  are various agencies that will sell  you a copy. However, the image on Wikipedia states it was created by the Library of Congress who generally allow open access.

[michaeldr]

DByS's link credits the Library of Congress (USA) however I have a book which uses this same picture and credits a collection at a completely different place [Zeev Vilnay's Collection, Yad Izhak Ben-Zvi, Jerusalem] so there seems to be some doubt as to who, if anybody, has a right to it

The photograph was taken very nearly 103 years ago and as you intend to use it for a non-commercial purpose, then I would go ahead and use it but give a credit to your source.

Edited 15 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

Dave, you should add these to your collection too

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

Dave

 

It might be useful to check out my post of 28th May 2020 which gives the names of those taking part in the surrender ceremony

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/88077-jerusalem-surrenders/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-2894199

 

regards

Michael

 

[Eran Tearosh]

Dave,

 

The photo was taken by Larsson, of the American Colony.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Larsson

 

This means that the Library of Congress has the photo's rights, and they grant free usage, as Michael stated.

 

Eran

[20th Division]

Thank you for your advice Gentlemen. I shall now use the photo as you suggest  and of course, give source-credits.  I have gone into your thread of 28/5 Michael --great picture and to have the names of those present a bonus. The photo of the " monument", is it in Jerusalem---part of the CWGC memorial? Again--thanks all--Dave.

[michaeldr]

On 16/10/2020 at 07:45, 20th Division said:

The photo of the " monument", is it in Jerusalem---part of the CWGC memorial?

The cenotaph is sited where the original surrender took place – in 1917 it was in the hills outside the city, but the city having expanded, today it is in one of the suburbs. The monument is in the care of the city's local administration (not the CWGC).

 

(from https://archive.org/stream/buildingnewseng118londuoft#page/176/mode/2up/search/Jerusalem)

Edited 17 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[Eran Tearosh]

 

Back in 2017, we had a series of events to commemorate the Centennial of the capture of Jerusalem. Naturally, the major event took place on the 11th of December, around Jaffa Gate and The Citadel. the following day, we had a humble event near this 60th Division Monument, in the center of the what is called today Allenby's Square (Near the western entrance to city, where the series of 'surrenders' started.

 

 

We had the honor of having the 4th Viscount of Megiddo, his mother - the widow of the late 3rd Viscount, and the grandson of General Shea, CO of the 60th Div. as our guests at this event, when a historical signpost was unveiled.

 

Eran    

Edited 17 October , 2020 by Eran Tearosh

[michaeldr]

I don't think that I've seen that before, nevertheless a great photograph Eran

The Vicount and the Dowager Vicountess are seen on the left

By a process of elimination, I take it that the Shea family are 2nd & 3rd from the right.

 

Once again, a very nice photograph

[20th Division]

Thank you Michael for this. I would like to use the picture of the Cenotaph--very relevant and historical event. Pity my Gt Uncle died 3 weeks before the final surrender. He was mortally wounded en-route at Tel esh Sheria on 7/11 but would have known that his comrades in the 60th division were well on their way to Jerusalem when he died of his wounds in Cairo on 20/11.  Eran--what  a "moment" that event must have been for you. I was a "tourist" in  Jerusalem in 1996 but sadly unaware at that time that I had a relative who was in the 60th. Fine City--and many happy memories of our week there. Thanks again gentlemen for the advice, photos and information.  Dave.

[Eran Tearosh]

Michael & Dave

 

Michael - You're right. On the left That's Lady Sara Allenby and at her side is her son - the 4th Viscount Allenby, Henry Jaffray Hynman Allenby

First from the right - Bob Mountwitten, a member of The Society for the heritage of WWI in Israel.  To his left are John & Christina Benson, John being General Shea's grandson. 

 

Dave - Yes, it was an incredible period. I was the organizer of and/or participated in over 30 different events around the whole country which were carried out in a period of two months, when preparations started a couple of years before. Although many people heard about the Beersheba events, for me the most moving and important series of events took place in Jerusalem, climax being the reenactment of the ceremony at the gate of the citadel, exactly at the right date and time!

Please note the difference between the Cenotaph's sketch Michael sent and the actual photos - The inscription eventually circles the monument and is not where and how it's on the Sketch.

 

 Eran   

 

Edited 17 October , 2020 by Eran Tearosh

[michaeldr]

From The Building News No. 3399 of Feb. 27, 1920 (p.154)
 

Cenotaph to be Erected at Jerusalem

This proposed cenotaph is to be erected at Jerusalem in memory of those of the 60^th London Division who fell in the Palestine campaign. It will be placed on the highest point near the City, except the Mount of Olives, and will be clearly seen by all who enter the City from the West

It was desired that the memorial, which has been designed by Mr. E. Wallcousins, should be an echo of the Whitehall cenotaph, and should not exceed £1,500 in cost. Therefore, it will be built of honey-coloured native stone, and the abstract representation of Crusaders forming the lower decoration will be expressed in V-shaped channelling and depressed planes. The height will be about 26 ft. on a base of 20 ft. x 12 ft. The general surface of the stone will be hammer-dressed with certain portions polished.

 

[see [https://archive.org/stream/buildingnewseng118londuoft#page/172/mode/2up/search/Jerusalem]

…................................................................................................................................................................

 

Alas, the proposed memorial to the EEF as a whole, which was planned to have been built on Mnt. Scopus, did not in the end come about;

see the article describing the planned edifice, on p.252, of The Building News, No.3404, April, 2, 1920 https://archive.org/stream/buildingnewseng118londuoft#page/268/mode/2up/search/Jerusalem

 

Edited 17 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

7 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Alas, the proposed memorial to the EEF as a whole, which was planned to have been built on Mnt. Scopus, did not in the end come about;

see the article describing the planned edifice, on p.252, of The Building News, No.3404, April, 2, 1920 https://archive.org/stream/buildingnewseng118londuoft#page/268/mode/2up/search/Jerusalem

 

Two further illustrations of the proposed memorial from the same publication

 

 

[Eran Tearosh]

Michael,

 

Thank you! I read about it in the past, but these illustrations are great!

 

I'm still not sure where exactly it was supposed to be built.

 

If I remember correctly, Allenby himself donated some money for the EEF memorial

 

Eran

[michaeldr]

The following passage is from a paper by Dr. Ron Fuchs - Sites of memory in the Holy Land: the design of the British war cemeteries in Mandate Palestine – which was published in 2004

The passage highlights the planning which went into the 60^th Division memorial

 

“The first town-plan for Jerusalem, prepared by William McLean in 1918 under the British Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA), designated two of the several rondpoints it projected for ‘monuments’, apparently war monuments. A year later, in his report on the planning of Jerusalem, the Scottish planner Patrick Geddes criticised at length the intention to built war monuments on these sites. These, he claimed, were artificial sites, where nothing meriting commemoration had taken place. Besides, a towering monument (as was apparently proposed) would ‘lacerate the city skyline’, an aggressive gesture that differed little, he thought, from the imperialistic tone of the architectural intrusions planted in the city by the European powers through the half century preceding the war. As an alternative site, he recommended a hill north of the city, the place where on 9 December 1917, the representatives of the Ottoman municipality came across two English sergeants on a liaison mission and conveyed to them the surrender of Jerusalem. When the 60th London Division decided to erect a memorial, it chose a site near the one suggested by Geddes. An inscription reads, ‘On this spot the Holy City was surrendered to the Sixtieth London Division, December 9th 1917’. The designer, A. Wallcousins of London, was expressly requested to paraphrase the Whitehall Cenotaph. He faithfully complied, but also enhanced Lutyens’ abstract forms with symbolic Crusader figures and lions’ heads. The monument, that stands today … … may be the first British architectural statement ever realised in the country.”

[michaeldr]

My apologies to Dave for the digression regarding the unbuilt memorial to the EEF, however,

having heard about the proposed memorial many years ago, the 1920 Building News magazine article is the first time that I have come across a visual representation of that proposed edifice. Now having seen what was envisaged, then why was it never built?

This question was also answered by Dr Fuchs in his 2004 article

 

“… … ...the plan to erect a ‘general memorial’ for the EEF in Jerusalem. The idea was put forward by General Allenby himself, and an appeal for subscriptions was launched in April 1918. All soldiers were invited to contribute a sum not exceeding a day’s wages. Eventually a sum of 13,000 Egyptian pounds (2000 short of the target sum) was collected. The intended site was ‘one of the most commanding round Jerusalem, about one and a half miles to the northeast of the city, near the Nablus road’, and only slightly to the north of the war cemetery on Mt Scopus. The design was chosen by Allenby himself through a competition held among EEF officers and soldiers. This was an ambitious classicist pile, consisting of ‘a central pylon about 110 ft high flanked by subsidiary pylons at the corners with a semi-circular colonnade [of Doric columns] to east and west. from which magnificent views of the city and surrounding country can be obtained’. The side facing the city was to be adorned by grandiose sculptures representing the figures of ‘mourning women and children of the Allied nations engaged on the front’, surmounted by a figure of ‘Victorious Peace’. The names of ‘those who gave their lives’ were to be inscribed on stone panels in the interior space. The project must have aroused interest in Britain, as two architectural magazines published the plans. Another, unsuccessful entry to Allenby’s competition, equally ambitious, was also published. The designer, M.S. Briggs, envisaged a 120 ft tower and many sculptured figures representing the Crusaders, the troops of the Expeditionary Force, and other ‘outstanding figures who have delivered the country from misrule’.

 

The grandiosity of the proposed memorial for the EEF reflected no doubt the enthusiasm of the victorious soldiers, but did not conform to the tactfulness that the British administration consistently exercised in architectural interventions in Jerusalem. It is hard to imagine that Ronald Storrs, the romantic governor of Jerusalem (1918–1926), would have tolerated the domineering gesture implied by a 40-m high British monument towering over the city, and in fact, such an erection would have contradicted the regulations in the first town plans of Jerusalem commissioned by Storrs. Planners such as Burnet and Geddes, whose respect for the skyline of Jerusalem we have already noted, would have objected to such a monument.

 

Eventually, Allenby’s independent and somewhat naive project was subjected to official and professional control. After 1921, the Imperial War Graves Commission became the sole body authorised to deal with commemoration outside Britain, and erecting memorials to battle exploits as well as national monuments became its exclusive responsibility. The wish to build a national monument in Jerusalem was, as we have seen, declared by Churchill two years earlier. The Commission was also responsible for the commemoration of the ‘missing’, and Burnet had already proposed in his report of 1919 to erect in each cemetery a memorial to them, which would become the architectural focus of the site. From here, it was a short way to suggest a single structure that would serve as a national monument as well as a memorial to the missing of the Palestine campaign. The war cemetery in Jerusalem was the obvious choice of site. This cemetery, declared a Commission memorandum on Burnet’s proposals, would be ‘one of the most important cemeteries of the Commission in the East, and one which is likely to be most visited. It is therefore not only a fitting place for the commemoration of the Missing, but also it is worthy of a rather exceptional treatment’. Burnet suggested that the ‘exceptional treatment’ would concentrate in a Memorial Chapel that would commemorate the missing and also serve as a ‘record house’ to keep the cemetery registers. Another memorial chapel was proposed for the cemetery of Gaza, the scene of the heaviest fighting.

 

In the meanwhile, Allenby’s memorial for the EEF ran into difficulties ‘regarding the site and the design’- and, no doubt, the funding as well. When Allenby learnt of the Commission’s intention of building a memorial chapel in Jerusalem, he gladly offered to transfer to the Commission the funds he had raised (the money had been lying in his own bank account for some years by then) for the purpose of building the chapel as the EEF memorial. The inscription over the chapel’s gate, as it was eventually built, accordingly declares that ‘this chapel was erected by the officers and men of the EEF in memory of their comrades who fell in the Palestine Campaign’. Shortly after Allenby’s donation, the available funds were augmented by further £6000: the contribution of the government of New Zealand to the commemoration of its own fallen. Australia, not wishing to appear less generous, added a further sum for an Australian memorial. Only Imperial India eventually decided not to take part in the Jerusalem cemetery; the entrance to the Suez Canal at Port Tewfik was deemed a more significant site from the Indian point of view. Allenby’s initiative, as well as the New Zealand and Australian national monuments, found their realisation in the project of the War Graves Commission. The funds available for the Jerusalem memorial were therefore generous relative to the size of the cemetery itself, and approached the sums spent on larger sites in France and Belgium.”

Edited 18 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[20th Division]

Amazing history of the monuments. Pity I was ignorant of all this on my visit to Jerusalem in 1996, I knew nothing at all about  my Gt Uncle Walter at that time, it had to wait until I retired. I would have loved to have seen these and to have paid my due respects. A photograph with appropriate captions from your response will certainly conclude my "booklet" for his ancestors. Fascinating history of the proposed monument! Thank you again Gentlemen. Regards. Dave