Where to find details of woundings/treatment

[CharlieTB]

My great uncle Gunner Henry Kirke White  (born 1894/5)  and serving with RGA - 17th Siege Battery was wounded at least twice.

 

Looking at the war diaries the battery was in the Gallipoli / Cape Helles theatre in 1915 and  secondly in 1917 around Ypres however I can see no mention of any casualties on the dates listed in the records

 

We also have an embroidery that he did supposedly as some sort of rehabilitation. Would he have been back in the UK?  His records show casualty record numbers.

 C(?)1699  and M13367.  Is there any way of finding out where he was treated and/or what injuries he sustained. He died in India in 1921 of heatstroke and in buried in the CWGC cemetery at Ferozepore.

[charlie962]

The Casualty List normally appeared some 4 weeks after actual date of wounding. Thus you could be looking for a Diary event c early Nov 1915 for the first wounding and early Sept 1917 for the second.

 

I note that in the 1915 CasList dated 13/12/15 there were 2 other RGA Gunners:

 

John Smith 25510 who was discharged with Silver War Badge 31/5/16 saying he was 17 Siege Bty (V 50 trench Mortar Bty)

I note 17 SBty went to Gallipoli 11/7/15 and subsequently to France.

 

HK White has entry 3, Egypt 24/7/15. as does Smith.  Thus a possible connection ??

 

Charlie

 

Edited 14 October , 2020 by charlie962

[CharlieTB]

Thank you for the information about the time lag- where can I find the actual casualty lists? Is there anywhere that actually states what the injury was?

 

Yes I have the war diaries covering 1915 embarkation  for Gallipoli and then until end of 1918 but it would be great to know how long he was out of action for so I can see which actions he may well have taken part in. 

[TEW]

The C1699 and M13367 references are both for his 1921 death. I think the official publications for WO lists ceased in 1919, so I'd say they are just internal references although It does say WO Casualty List. Possibly in The Times?

 

His 1917 injury will be published in the official lists available from NLS but you have to find list 5389. This won't give injury details though.

 

The 1915 event should be in The Times of 13/12/1915 but won't give injury details.

 

Have you checked if he has a MOD record under his Army number?

TEW

[CharlieTB]

Thank you for the above info.  I have recently applied to MOD hoping they have his records as I can't find any searching the main sites. He died in 1921 so hopefully they are there- rather than lost/destroyed -  fingers crossed.

 

I will trawl through the NLS list - thank you for that.

 

Charlie

[CharlieTB]

Thanks again I have found the 1917 entry

Charlie

[charlie962]

Charlie, somehow you already knew that HKW was in 17 SB . How did you know this?, Do you believe he served in the same Bty throughout ? (woundings that required evacuation often lead to a man being posted to a different battery upon recovery)

 

charlie

[CharlieTB]

This is all I have to link him with 17 Battery. When he died in 1921 he was with 12 Battery wherever and whatever that was. I was hoping to get dates of medical treatment / rehab (when presumably he had enough time to complete the embroidery shown at the beginning!) so at least I could work out where he wasn't- if you get my drift - assuming he was still with 17 Batt.  I am a novice at navigating around the sites and knowing where to look.

[charlie962]

to me that suggests he was probably 17 sb throughout

[CharlieTB]

Thanks for that, I did post on the Soldiers and their units section asking if anyone knew anything about 12 Batt located in/around the Punjab in 1921. That was originally all I had from his CWGC . When I looked on the Long Long Trail and Wiki I can see no mention of what 12 Batt was.  One reply I got directed me to the medal roll above and hence I found out that he was originally in 17th. So still a lot of gaps in info but gradually putting a picture together.  I was wondering if he would stay with 17th especially if he was badly injured but your input is very useful.

Thanks again

 

Charlie

 

- I can see why people get hooked on genealogy! and I still have 3 other of his brothers to investigate!

Edited 14 October , 2020 by CharlieTB
spelling

[TEW]

Going back to the WO Casualty List C 1699.

 

No, sorry I've not found found it but there is a C 1475 list in this post. It is for RGA in Feb 1918.

 

Not sure if it's a coincidence that it is for RGA. Other lists have proved to be sequential though so one would expect to see list 1699 as later than list 1475.

 

These lists are the basis for the published lists or at least a starting point. The 1475 list has 82565 Webb being wounded 15/12/1917 then Authority given by OC unit and a date of 8/2/18. His injury was published in the official lists 9/3/1918.

 

Not found an 'M' list as yet.

TEW

 

[CharlieTB]

There are a number of H.A. lists also with RGA - what is the difference between a C number and H.A. number and a B number?

 

Thanks for illustrating the time delay between reports and them being in a newspaper - I also hadn't found the casualty list thread so am looking through the posts which will take me sometime but are v interesting.

 

 

Edited 14 October , 2020 by CharlieTB
addition

[TEW]

Yes, the lists are interesting, good job there was a paper shortage and redundant lists were recycled into service files.

 

There are a number of lists types, you may see some of my comments. Without checking HA & HB are quite frequent. HA almost always being seen as 'Hospital Admission' which doesn't explain HB or HC. I think HA & HB were hospital admissions in France (HA) and UK (HB), HC (Salonica, Malta?) HW,  not sure of, some just H. P lists are Progress, C I'm not sure of. I'm sure there are X lists somewhere, now M lists and some that have no prefix and are just 'List No. .....'

 

NB. I think an HC list is a different beast to a C List.

TEW

[CharlieTB]

Well it will give me something to read during lockdown. There is a lot of information on this site I didn't know existed and hopefully his records will be with MOD and I will get them soon. In the meantime, thanks again for your pointers, no doubt I will have more questions once I have had a good look at the sources you and the others have mentioned

Cheers

Charlie

 

[charlie962]

13 hours ago, TEW said:

Yes, the lists are interesting, good job there was a paper shortage and redundant lists were recycled into service files.

 

There are a number of lists types, you may see some of my comments. Without checking HA & HB are quite frequent. HA almost always being seen as 'Hospital Admission' which doesn't explain HB or HC. I think HA & HB were hospital admissions in France (HA) and UK (HB), HC (Salonica, Malta?) HW,  not sure of, some just H. P lists are Progress, C I'm not sure of. I'm sure there are X lists somewhere, now M lists and some that have no prefix and are just 'List No. .....'

 

NB. I think an HC list is a different beast to a C List.

 That's more than I knew already- it would be useful to have an idea of the meaning of prefixes and a date range for the serial numbers. Has this been done , @brianmorris547 should have a good idea but perhaps it is lost in a post in his longthread on caslists ?

Charlie (962)

[charlie962]

16 hours ago, charlie962 said:

to me that suggests he was probably 17 sb throughout

Sorry, I now doubt myself. It is silver war badge rolls where the unit shown is last unit. On these BWM Medal Rolls I think it is more likely (and usual)  the unit first entered into overseas theatre. So no g'tee that he continued with same unit after wounding.

 

eg Kunkel, on the same page and originally 17 SBty ended up 355 SB in 1918

 

Charlie

Edited 15 October , 2020 by charlie962

[TEW]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

 That's more than I knew already- it would be useful to have an idea of the meaning of prefixes and a date range for the serial numbers. Has this been done , @brianmorris547 should have a good idea but perhaps it is lost in a post in his longthread on caslists ?

Charlie (962)

 

I think quite a bit has been deduced,  you'd have to trawl all 41 pages though! Not certain that prefix identities have been 'written in stone'.

 

Perhaps a PM to Brian, NB Brian is not the OP, you'll see that mentioned once I or twice!

 

Another member started a spreadsheet, they may be ok with sending a copy.

TEW

[CharlieTB]

I am over halfway through the thread. I must admit I cannot see a link between the HA and HB or C lists.  Someone mentioned looking at WO 329/2984 -9 on ancestry but I can't find where they are. It seems that Gnr Henry Kirk White was not listed as having a silver war badge either.  I will keep going as there is a lot of interesting info on the thread.

[TEW]

Not sure there is supposed to be a link between the list types. HA seem to exclusively be admissions to hospitals in France or transfers to Convalescent depots.

HB ditto but in UK. HC ditto in Egypt. HW France again, not sure why. E & EFC both Egypt.

 

P = progress reports, seem to be France only. PG = India connection. PM & X lists relate to POW.

 

Other B & C lists include infantry, RE, RA etc.

TEW

[CharlieTB]

OK thank you for that that makes more sense

 

 

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, TEW said:

NB Brian is not the OP

He is the OP of the Royal Engineers sick and wounded thread which means he has looked at large quantities of lists, as well as being a contributor to the Casualty Lists thread. I was hoping my use of the @ symbol would attract his attention.

 

2 hours ago, CharlieTB said:

It seems that Gnr Henry Kirk White was not listed as having a silver war badge either.

No, I could not see anything either. The problem is that you can only really be sure at the moment that HKW was with 17 SB up until his first wounding late 1915.

 

Have you tried local newspapers ?

charlie

[CharlieTB]

No I hadn't tried the local newspapers for him. I will finish reading the casualty lists thread -only about 8 more pages to go and then start on the papers. Thanks for the tip

 

Charlie

[brianmorris547]

His number 39324 does not show up on FMP as being on a "H" Casualty List. From memory, when I was researching wounded REs of 1916, the lists started as H, then became HA. HB lists were for admissions into UK hospitals (from France or Med). HC, HD were Mediterranean.

He is on War Office Casualty List 5389 dated 13/10/1917, a very large list of wounded RGA.  It gives his NOK address as Northfleet. I had a look in the Times for his 1915 entry but it mainly shows Mediterranean as "Under various dates". I did not find him but the RGA wounded were just under RGA without any Unit being shown.

Brian

[CharlieTB]

Thank you very much Brian, I was originally trying to find C1699 and M13367 as below.  Plus I assumed his 1917 wounds must have been significant  as he had time to produce the detailed embroidery (photo on earlier post).  I also hoped to work out when he was hors de combat  so I could work out  what action he missed.