Order of Battle - Hill 70, 1917 - Correction!

[GrandsonMichael]

At the CEF Study Group Forum we're working on a pilot study to determine

how much info we can gather on the Battle of Hill 70, which was strategically important for the following attack on Lens.

Time period: 15th August - 25th August, 1917.

I have encountered a problem whilst compiling a list of relevant War Diary entries:

An Order of Battle (Orbat) is needed to do effective research.

Question: what is the correct definition of Order of Battle?

For instance: only units directly involved in the assault or does one add supporting units, etc.

Thanks in advance for help on this issue and thanks to Chris Henschke for pointing out my mistaken terminology.

Cheers,

Michael

[PhilB]

I would consider the O of B to list all units nominated as available for the action, though not necessarily used. It wouldn`t include supporting units which were not designated to take part in the fighting. I appreciate that you want an "official" definition, though! Phil B

[PhilB]

A bit more official:-

Definitions of order of battle on the Web:

The identification, strength, command structure, and disposition of the personnel, units, and equipment of any military force. (Joint Pub 1-02)

www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3-55/3-55gl.htm

Intelligence pertaining to identification, strength, command structure, and disposition of personnel, units, and equipment of any military force. The OB factors form the any military force. The OB factors form the framework for analyzing military forces and their capabilities, building threat models, and hence developing COA models. See FM 34-3.

www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/34-130/Gloss.htm

The list of forces available in a scenario or campaign, usually indicating how the units are organized. For instance, an Order of Battle might indicate that Commissary-General George Porter was in command of four regiments of horse (commanded respectively by John Digby, James Hamilton, the Earl of Cleveland, and Robert Phelips' French Regiment). Also known as Tables of Organization.

www.theminiaturespage.com/ref/glossary.html

[Chris Henschke]

Yes, that's the NATO definition.

Michael,

If you start from the top down, you will get your answer. Canadian Corps operation orders will have the distribution list.

When you start to think about excluding units because they did not cross the start line, it leaves out many units that would have been vital. As I said, Artillery should be part of your Orbat, as should all the MG Companies that were part of the fireplan.

That address you mentioned in the other post re Currie-I have never heard of it. Sounds interesting, though. I'm giving a presentation about Hamel and Amiens next month, so if you have a copy or let me know where I can find it, it may come in handy.

And yes, I did mean the Sappers and their evil devices!

regards from another colonial,

Chris Henschke

[GrandsonMichael]

Phil & Chris, thanks.

This is exactly the kind of discussion I hoped for.

A definition is in the make here...in theory and practice.

I tend to agree that it should be as broad as possible. Any unit which contributes to a battle in whatever way – directly or indirectly - would seem a logical candidate for constructing the Orbat.

Before the attack on Hill 70 and later on Lens in August 1917 the impression was given in July to the enemy that the entire 1st Army was going to attack. This was accomplished via minor attacks like for instance the raid of the 116th Bn. on German trenches on the 23rd July.

Would you also incorporate these units when drawing up the Order of Battle?

Chris, the Address can be found CEF Study Group

It was transcribed by a Canadian colonial Dwight Mercer aka Borden Battery

and greetings from this (me that is) Dutch colonial...

Michael

[PhilB]

Difficult to generalize, Michael, but I think subsidiary and feint attacks, particularly outside the main battle zone, would not mean inclusion in the O of B. As an example I have a Pte, 7 Can Inf KIA 25/9/15 in a feint gas attack by the Canadians on the wing of the Loos attack. The Canadians don`t appear in any Loos O of B that I have seen. Phil B

[GrandsonMichael]

O.K. Phil,

As you say, difficult to generalise, but would you include units in the situation I suggested if they were indeed active in the main battle zone before the actual attack of the main forces?

I gather you have a source (or sources) for WWI Orbats, which include

some Canadian Orbats? If so, would you mind pointing me in the right direction.

I haven't had a look at the websites you quoted from, but will do a.s.a.p.

Thanks for your input.

Michael

[PhilB]

O.K. Phil,

As you say, difficult to generalise, but would you include units in the situation I suggested if they were indeed active in the main battle zone before the actual attack of the main forces?

Michael

I would have thought so, providing they were within the dates laid down for the battle. The date usually starts from the date of the main attack though!

I used to have a list of Canadian OofBs. If I can locate them, I`ll let you know.

Phil B

[GrandsonMichael]

Well Phill, that narrows it down even more, thanks.

If you can find your list, I'l be very grateful.

Cheers,

Michael

[PhilB]

I`ve had another think about this, Michael, and mentally reviewed the Os of B I`ve come across. I`ve come to the conclusion that there are no hard and fast rules - you include those units you considered to have taken part. That`s to say, were pencilled in as available for the action, whether used or not. The inclusion of supporting arms would be at your discretion. I imagine the start and end dates would normally be fixed by a Battles Nomenclature Committee. If not, you`d presumably be free to supply your own.

I`m not aware of an "Orders of Battle Determination Committee". Of course, if there were such a body, that would cramp your style considerably! Phil B

[GrandsonMichael]

Thanks again Phil - with one l, sorry - I sure don't want the litle style I have to be cramped!

If anyone gets word of such a Committee just disembody it...

Gathering up all the advice I got from you guys I've decided to start with a fairly broad definition but based on slogging through the War Diaries narrow it down to all units that I can identify as having been directly or indirectly part of the actual battle during said period.

Corroborated where possible by secondary sources, few as they may be.....

Cheers,

Michael