Armourer Staff Serjeant Questions

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

It's really not that bad.  I picked the man out from the first photo because, as you said, his uniform was different.  No plaid brooch to start.  What I can't make out is the hammer and pincers.  Can we say this would be the AOC dress uniform? 

Yes, it’s the AOC full dress tunic (which had evolved from the uniform of the Ordnance Store Corps (OSC) and before that the quasi military dress of the civilian staff of the Board of Ordnance).  
A dark blue tunic, the collar was scarlet and for SNCOs and WOs framed with varying degrees of gold lace, and similarly decorated on the scarlet cuffs with a trefoil knot.  
Initially collar badges had been the plain crowns worn by the OSC and numerous other corps without special insignia.  They were in effect default insignia, but before the Boer War the Ordnance shield in brass was adopted as collar insignia.  The white diagonal strap is the ‘pouch belt’ referred to above and abolished by 1914.

 

 

Edited 29 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

On the Western Front would armourers have worn the same P1902 SD jacket and trousers as the infantry?  If so, presumably they wore AOC shoulder titles?  

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Piper42nd said:

On the Western Front would armourers have worn the same P1902 SD jacket and trousers as the infantry?  If so, presumably they wore AOC shoulder titles?  

Yes, and yes.  P1902 SD was pan-Army, only insignia was different.

Edited 29 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

The last questions for a while.  Would they have worn anything thing else AOC specific on their SD jacket like the collar badges for instance?  Would it be better to start a separate thread for armourer/AOC questions?  

[FROGSMILE]

On 29/09/2020 at 22:12, Piper42nd said:

The last questions for a while.  Would they have worn anything thing else AOC specific on their SD jacket like the collar badges for instance?  Would it be better to start a separate thread for armourer/AOC questions?  

Not usually any other insignia than a shoulder title and a cap badge.  That was regulation, but these men worked in their own little world of oily workshops and it’s always possible that one or other might wear collar badges on SD as a personal idiosyncrasy.  I’ve not seen any examples in WW1 era photos.  Collar badges were formally adopted on SD across the army in 1922 after several years where units had been doing so on their own initiative.

 

I see no reason for another thread.  The title of this one seems sufficiently encompassing.

Edited 7 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

I have a question - Armourers in regular regiments were AOC Attd. and from 1895 they wore AOC uniform. I understand that Armourers in TF regiments wore regimental uniform until about WW1 - is that because they were members of the regiment who were trained to act as armourers, or were they regimentally badged AOC who retained their regimental uniform due to some quirk of the rules governing the TF? And was there a TF branch of the AOC? Not sure I've come across one before.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

I have a question - Armourers in regular regiments were AOC Attd. and from 1895 they wore AOC uniform. I understand that Armourers in TF regiments wore regimental uniform until about WW1 - is that because they were members of the regiment who were trained to act as armourers, or were they regimentally badged AOC who retained their regimental uniform due to some quirk of the rules governing the TF? And was there a TF branch of the AOC? Not sure I've come across one before.

Because they were members of the regiment who were trained as armourers.  This was the original modus operandi going back even to before they were made mandatory on infantry establishments in 1803, it was a very ancient way of doing things indeed.  Although the corps of armourers was formed in 1858 to coordinate their recruitment on behalf of the prime users (the infantry) and standardise their certification (to ensure a common standard), the cavalry continued to operate the old system of direct recruitment until brought into line in 1899.  The local nature of the VB/TF led to the same policy.  
 

There were no AOC auxiliary volunteers, but for many decades it was a requirement of civil employment by the BOO that in the event of war they would be militarised.  This ended after the Crimean War, but the permanent military establishment that replaced it was painstakingly kept as small as possible.

Edited 1 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

This photo is an enlarged portion of a photo of Canadian armourers.  It's not very good but can anyone make out the armourer badge and crown of an armourer staff serjeant?  Note the insignia only appear on his right sleeve. 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, I can see it, although the resolution is very poor.  It’s Unusual to have rank on just the right sleeve only, as you can tell from the man next to him.

Edited 23 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

As mentioned earlier the Armourer Staff Serjeant was equipped with a sword at least before the war.  Did the Pattern 1903 equipment include a sword "carriage" I believe you called it Frogsmile?

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

As mentioned earlier the Armourer Staff Serjeant was equipped with a sword at least before the war.  Did the Pattern 1903 equipment include a sword "carriage" I believe you called it Frogsmile?

 

There was a 1903 Slade Wallace pattern “sword belt and carriage” (supply chain nomenclature) in brown leather specially introduced to accompany the bandolier equipment.  It was the last pattern on general issue for regimental personnel equipped with the “sword staff sergeant”.  The holster was a separate item that came with the revolver concerned and a cleaning rod.  I assume that the Armourer Sergeant received a 1903 belt of that type together with a pistol and holster (Enfield or Webley depending on date), and part of the bandolier equipment to make up a set for marching order.  In essence he would have had that kit since it was phased in and retained it when the rest of the battalion were issued 1908 web equipment.

 

In more recent times it was replaced by a white PVC plastic version with brass clasp bearing a QEC.  When the Corps of Army Music was formed in 1994 the 1903 pattern in brown leather was resurrected and is worn again by WO2 in No2 Dress/FA Service Dress (see enclosed images).

 

NB.  There is also an officers pattern of this belt worn by Royal Marines officers, but it is of a noticeably different design, in set sizes, rather than adjustable.

 

 

Edited 7 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Thank you once again Frogsmile.  Now I've just got to find one. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Piper42nd said:

Thank you once again Frogsmile.  Now I've just got to find one. 

 

The belts do occasionally come up on militaria auctions, or you could buy a new belt and add an old clasp (the latter are quite common).

[Piper42nd]

Do you mean a standard '03 belt and add a Slade Wallace buckle?  That's easy enough.  The hard part will be finding a carriage.

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

Do you mean a standard '03 belt and add a Slade Wallace buckle?  That's easy enough.  The hard part will be finding a carriage.

 

The belt I posted above is a 1903 Slade Wallace pattern with carriage, but it has a EIIR clasp for our present Queen.  Some old belts survive, but only rarely the carriage (2 x slings), although many of the clasps still exist because they were identical to the type worn on soldiers white buff belts.  I just meant that you could buy a modern belt and add an old GVR clasp.

 

I enclose a photo of an Armourer QMS sat with his fellow SNCOs on the HQ Staff of a KRRC battalion at around the transitional period, but wearing the previous white buff (slightly sueded leather) version of the belt.  The clasp is identical.

He's wearing a dark blue SNCO pattern undress frock, rather than a tunic.  Notice the special, AOC pattern, elongated trefoil loop decoration used on the frock’s cuffs.

 

 

Edited 7 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Got it.   Thanks again. 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Piper42nd said:

Got it.   Thanks again. 

 

The only difference is the central, male part of the clasp.  See above.

 

Here's a lot of clasps: http://militaryauction.org/s/british-belt-buckle

Edited 7 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

I just ran across this chart and believe the 1890 version 3 is what I need.  It's only adjustable on the wearer's right side, unlike the 1994 version, but it looks like your QMS' belt also only adjusts on the right. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

I just ran across this chart and believe the 1890 version 3 is what I need.  It's only adjustable on the wearer's right side, unlike the 1994 version, but it looks like your QMS' belt also only adjusts on the right. 

 

 

I think that the QMS is wearing the 1890 pattern yes.  I'm unsure of the precise 1903 pattern details.  It might have been just a brown leather version of the 1890 pattern, but it might also have been designed specifically to be complementary to the 1903 bandolier equipment.  Most photos that I've seen suggest that it did not have the upper attachment rings, unless perhaps they were the retractable type and simply out of sight.  It needs more research.  There is no doubt though that there was a 1903 version.  Sadly there is nothing in karkeeweb (the website) about these long standing belts for swords.  It is an unsung hero alongside the much more junior (in age) Sam Browne belt.

 

The current officers' pattern for Royal Marines looks very similar to the Army staff sergeants' type of 1890.

 

Edited 7 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

It does indeed.  Perhaps they carried the pattern straight through from 1890 to the present then.  I have a friend of mine looking into it so hopefully he can find something definitive.  

I bought a KC clasp from the link you sent so thanks for that. 

[Piper42nd]

I found this on karkeeweb which seems to address the P1903 version:

 

L. of C. No. 13753, Bandolier Equipment, Pattern 1903:- Belt, waist- Chape with loop | Guard, sword | Carriages, sword- Long | Short. dated 25th May 1907

Introduces Chape with loop; Guard, sword; Carriages, sword. Declares Belt, waist, brown, warrant officers obsolete.

The attached image shows what was approved and declares the previous belt (P1890?) obsolete.  Unfortunately I don't understand what it is that was approved and there is no picture.

[Piper42nd]

Actually if you look at the 2nd paragraph from the bottom, just below the "184", I believe it suggests that the sword carrier just slid onto the standard "Belt,waist, bandolier equipment, pattern 1903" in peace time and slid off for war.

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

Actually if you look at the 2nd paragraph from the bottom, just below the "184", I believe it suggests that the sword carrier just slid onto the standard "Belt,waist, bandolier equipment, pattern 1903" in peace time and slid off for war.

Brilliant, you’ve found the solution.  That’s definitely it.  If you look at the first photos that I posted above it shows what appears similar in scale to a 1903 equipment belt but with the removable clasp instead of fixed frame buckle and prong.  It’s adjustable at both ends, with the loop and chape on one end, and a loop on the other, plus a guard and hook.  I’ve never yet seen in any photos the 03 belt, fitted for a sword, used with a frame and prong buckle.  However, the “sword belt warrant officer in brown leather” that is mentioned as obsolete, appears to me to be the one resurrected and worn by Royal Marines officers today.  Both belts fitted with the clasp, would look very similar from any distance as you can see above.  You have shown without doubt that the 03 equipment belt was designed to be retrofitted with a sword via attachments specially for that purpose.  When I looked at karkeeweb I was scouring the images and could see no sign of sword fitments, but the text you have found definitely describes the sword attachment as I would expect to see it.  Presumably the reason I’ve seen no photos with the 03 frame buckle belt fitted with a sword is because it was caveated peacetime only.  I’m puzzled by this as if the commissioned officers started the war carrying swords then its counter intuitive that the warrant officers (and staff sergeants equipped as warrant officers) did not, especially as their equipping was still mentioned in the documentary references that started this subject of conversation.  Nevertheless, if carried at all, they weren’t carried for very long and would’ve been an impediment to such men as Armourer Sergeants.

 

NB.  Given the 1907 date, it seems clear to me that the “sword belt warrant officer in brown leather” was that type introduced in 1903 to replace the sword belt staff sergeant in buff leather of 1890, and that in 1907 the attachments for the bandolier equipment belt were introduced thus making the previous, separate belt obsolete.

Edited 9 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

The fellow on the right in the full photo is wearing a P1903 belt with sword attached.  Unfortunately I can't make out how the sword is attached to the belt.  If you zoom in you can almost see something that looks like it is slid onto the belt.  I ordered the book where the photo came from hoping it would be a bit clearer. 

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant, that’s the first image of that combination that I’ve ever seen, too.  I can imagine how the loop and chape, and carriage (two slings) slid on to the belt, but not the guard and hook. What a rare image that must be.  It seems that the 1907 attachments could only have been in use a very short time.  The type with clasp was so much more smart that I imagine it was probably retained by individuals for as long as possible.

Edited 11 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE