Derby recruit or not?

[Skipman]

Researching a soldier, Private S/17148 John Menzies, born in January, 1888, who enlisted Black Watch between the 5th and 18th September, 1916. He married on the 9th of September, 1916, and at that time was at Nigg with the 3rd Battalion.

 

Trying to figure out if he was normal conscript, or whether he enlisted under the Derby Scheme. His age puts him in Group 10 which was mobilized 29/2/1916.

 

No date of entry into theatre of war but served with 2nd Black Watch, Mesopotamia. Anyone care to give a date for going overseas. He wrote and signed soldier's will on the 6th of December, 1916, so imagine he went soon after this?

 

Any help much appreciated.

 

Mike

[Alan24]

On face value it does look like conscription. 

 

He could of course been in an important job and deferred. 

 

It does seem odd that he would have attested under the group scheme and then tried to delay. But I'm sure some did.

 

If he was married on the 9th I would have thought it unlikely he would have been given time off to get married if he had only joined a few days earlier. This may help narrow down his enlistment to between 10th and 18th.

 

What is his occupation on the marriage cert? Was he listed as soldier or civilian?

 

Was his marriage by Banns or Licence? This will also tell you if it was a last minute arrangement. Licence only needed 48 hours notice and will be indicated on the certificate. 

 

Alan.

[Skipman]

Thanks very much for your very useful reply. Have attached (quite a bit of) the wedding certificate. He was a baker to trade.

 

Mike

Edited 26 September , 2020 by Skipman

[Langdon]

I imagine you've come across this 'With a Highland Regiment in Mesopotamia' by HJ Blampied but just in case! Absorbing stuff...!

 

Mike

[Skipman]

3 minutes ago, Langdon said:

I imagine you've come across this 'With a Highland Regiment in Mesopotamia' by HJ Blampied but just in case! Absorbing stuff...!

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike. Thanks for that. Yes indeed, I have copied and pasted all the relevant text. A tremendous resource.

 

Mike

[Skipman]

On 26/09/2020 at 08:17, Alan24 said:

On face value it does look like conscription. 

 

He could of course been in an important job and deferred. 

 

It does seem odd that he would have attested under the group scheme and then tried to delay. But I'm sure some did.

 

If he was married on the 9th I would have thought it unlikely he would have been given time off to get married if he had only joined a few days earlier. This may help narrow down his enlistment to between 10th and 18th.

 

What is his occupation on the marriage cert? Was he listed as soldier or civilian?

 

Was his marriage by Banns or Licence? This will also tell you if it was a last minute arrangement. Licence only needed 48 hours notice and will be indicated on the certificate. 

 

Alan.

 

Back looking at this and apologies Alan24 I didn't answer. He was listed as a soldier.

 

Mike

[Alan24]

1 hour ago, Skipman said:

 

Back looking at this and apologies Alan24 I didn't answer. He was listed as a soldier.

 

Mike

Thanks Mike.

Just rereading this again, it's clear that he had already joined up  and been posted to Nigg before 9th September. 

So the question is why do you think he joined between 5th and 18th? Why could he have not joined up earlier in the year?

[Skipman]

1 hour ago, Alan24 said:

Thanks Mike.

Just rereading this again, it's clear that he had already joined up  and been posted to Nigg before 9th September. 

So the question is why do you think he joined between 5th and 18th? Why could he have not joined up earlier in the year?

Hi Alan I'm convinced he joined up between these dates because of his number which I have on good authority was issued between these dates.

Mike

[charlie962]

What does the back-calc of his war gratuity suggest?

He was a Private.

Craig @ss002d6252 will know and also confirm whether date is original attest or mobilzn.

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

What does the back-calc of his war gratuity suggest?

He was a Private.

Craig @ss002d6252 will know and also confirm whether date is original attest or mobilzn.

As a quick mental calculation, 14 months.

Month from 16 August 1916.

Craig 

[charlie962]

If he had previously attested and been trf to the reserve, would this be reflected in amount of gratuity or was it only from mobilisation? 

(Thanks for speedy reply and I think I might have asked this q before but not memorised the reply)

Edited 24 October , 2022 by charlie962

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

If he had previously attested and been trf to the reserve, would this be reflected in amount of gratuity or was it only from mobilisation? 

(Thanks for speedy reply and I think I might have asked this q before but not memorised the reply)

Only mobilised service.

Craig

[charlie962]

Thanks Craig. So we have no further clues, just mobilisation and issue of that number early Sept 1916.

[Skipman]

7 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Thanks Craig. So we have no further clues, just mobilisation and issue of that number early Sept 1916.

Thanks folks. Don't have any further info on him until his death in October 1917 at 31 British Stationary Hospital at Baghdad.

Mike

[Skipman]

S/17139 Robert Turley enlisted 28/8/1916 Silver War Badge

Mike

[charlie962]

There are quite a few men with near numbers, issued in the first week or so of Sept 1916, who had previous service, perhaps TF. Often they seemed to get trfd out to another line regiment a month later. 

But from the Effects calc we know that Menzies had no previous service and that he remained Black Watch until his death.

I noted a near number that didn't go to Mespot until May 1917 so it is quite possible that Menzies missed the capture of Baghdad. 

Charlie

[charlie962]

This is him in the Perthshire Advertiser Nov 1917.- via Findmypast newspapers

Edited 25 October , 2022 by charlie962

[Skipman]

Yes that's him. I have all this thanks but am trying to figure out when he got there and when he became ill but there's nothing. I think the Black Watch were about Tikrit in October 1917 and Baghdad, where he died, is about 100 miles south-east, of it so imagine it would have taken some time to get an ill man to Baghdad?

 

Mike