Black Watch badge

[ronmarsden]

Very crisp and sharp strike of 1902-36 OR's pattern glengarry badge with heavy silver plate.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/OWXba1R.jpg?1[/img]

[ronmarsden]

photo not appearing will try again.

 

[FROGSMILE]

That is indeed an exceedingly fine striking for an OR’s pattern badge, Ron.  Thank you for posting it.

[RNCVR]

That is indeed a beautiful badge!

Thanks for posting.

[gordon92]

Ron....Do you think this was a private purchase item?

Mike

[squirrel]

Could well be or perhaps whoever owned it was in the metals trade or knew someone who was.

 

An Arty soldier I knew who served between the wars was fed up with burnishing his spurs. He worked in a metal works and had them chrome plated there.

[ronmarsden]

2 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Ron....Do you think this was a private purchase item?

Mike

Gordon, I have three examples of this badge seen here in the centre its much nicer  condition than the other two.

My feeling is that these were made for pipers or bandsmen.

Ron

[gordon92]

12 minutes ago, ronmarsden said:

Gordon, I have three examples of this badge seen here in the centre its much nicer  condition than the other two.

My feeling is that these were made for pipers or bandsmen.

Ron

That is entirely plausible, Ron.  In the days when the military band (sometimes accompanied by a few pipers) played outside engagements, they would have wanted to present a sharp appearance to the public. The fees garnered from these events would have justified the cost of these upscale badges.

[ronmarsden]

Here is the 1st Bn SNCO's 02-36 glengarry badge again in excellent condition.

 

[RNCVR]

That is a beautiful badge Ron!

 

Thanks for posting!

[gordon92]

7 hours ago, ronmarsden said:

Here is the 1st Bn SNCO's 02-36 glengarry badge again in excellent condition.

 

 

6 hours ago, RNCVR said:

That is a beautiful badge Ron!

 

Thanks for posting!

It is, indeed, a beautiful badge. The gilting appears pristine.  Is the rest of the badge solid silver or plated?

[ronmarsden]

12 hours ago, gordon92 said:

 

It is, indeed, a beautiful badge. The gilting appears pristine.  Is the rest of the badge solid silver or plated?

 

12 hours ago, gordon92 said:

 

It is, indeed, a beautiful badge. The gilting appears pristine.  Is the rest of the badge solid silver or plated?

The badge is silver plated, as is this officers mint condition example with burnished St. Andrews cross and letters of the motto.

 

[Jerry B]

Some very fine badges shown.

[thefoostybadger]

Another admirer of the badges here; great pictures!!

 

The thread has also prompted the asking of the following question which has bounced around my head for a bit and has not been solved by several episodes of "googling", (my default position with things like this is to try and find the answer independently rather than use the precious time of others, especially with "newbie type" stuff.

 

Did the Black Watch issue an economy brass badge of the type above for use during WW1 or not? I did read that the Canadian battalions only did, but have not found an opinion that is 100% certain of this.

 

Interest is due to 2 great-great uncles who server in the 4th Bn, Territorial Force, one of whom is featured as a case study in Sir Henry Head's "Aphasia and Kindred Disorders of Speech; Volume 2".

 

Was also going to ask about the Lacessit/ Lacesset issue which had also confused me but have got my head round that now

 

I'm trying to learn quickly, but it's from a pretty low base! 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[ronmarsden]

9 hours ago, thefoostybadger said:

Another admirer of the badges here; great pictures!!

 

The thread has also prompted the asking of the following question which has bounced around my head for a bit and has not been solved by several episodes of "googling", (my default position with things like this is to try and find the answer independently rather than use the precious time of others, especially with "newbie type" stuff.

 

Did the Black Watch issue an economy brass badge of the type above for use during WW1 or not? I did read that the Canadian battalions only did, but have not found an opinion that is 100% certain of this.

 

Interest is due to 2 great-great uncles who server in the 4th Bn, Territorial Force, one of whom is featured as a case study in Sir Henry Head's "Aphasia and Kindred Disorders of Speech; Volume 2".

 

Was also going to ask about the Lacessit/ Lacesset issue which had also confused me but have got my head round that now

 

I'm trying to learn quickly, but it's from a pretty low base! 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Here is an example of a brass Black Watch badge.

Also a photo (Whily collection) of members of 'A' Coy 6th RH wearing brass badges in the trenches at Festubert June 1915 they had only been in France for four weeks. That means brass badges were worn a year before the 1916 economy badges were issued.

Four of the men are named Pte Dean; L/Cpl Newell; Majury and L/Cpl Willis. These men all came from the Irish section of the 6RH either Belfast or Dublin.

On June 10th Newell and Willis were killed on patrol in no-mans land. Dean was one of the three men to retrieve their bodies, he was awarded the Croix-de Guerre.

Wauchope vol 11 pp 131.

 

 

 

 

[Jerry B]

the example from my collection

[thefoostybadger]

Thanks very much @ronmarsden and @Jerry B for posting such good looking badges and the explanation fron Ron, including the story of the men of the 6th RH.  The help is much appreciated.

 

Apologies for the quality of this follow up, (my knowledge of badges/insignia etc is not good), with regard to Ron's " That means brass badges were worn a year before the 1916 economy badges were issued.." 

 

Do you mean that RH were wearing brass badges prior to other regiments adopting brass, or do you mean the RH economy badge from 1916 was not brass but a different metal?

 

Or do you mean neither and I am being particularly dense today? 

 

Another thing I have noticed in respect of RH badges on the likes of Ebay is that brass is very much outnumbered by white metal, (which is why i had thought brass may not have existed in the first place), although I appreciate much of what is for sale may be contemporary copies.

 

I have sufficient confidence when adding to my small collection of medals online, in terms of spotting a "wrong un"; unfortunately i am struggling a bit to identify what may or may not be a "genuine" badge.

 

Anyway, many regards and thanks again.

 

 

[ronmarsden]

3 minutes ago, thefoostybadger said:

Thanks very much @ronmarsden and @Jerry B for posting such good looking badges and the explanation fron Ron, including the story of the men of the 6th RH.  The help is much appreciated.

 

Apologies for the quality of this follow up, (my knowledge of badges/insignia etc is not good), with regard to Ron's " That means brass badges were worn a year before the 1916 economy badges were issued.." 

 

Do you mean that RH were wearing brass badges prior to other regiments adopting brass, or do you mean the RH economy badge from 1916 was not brass but a different metal?

 

Or do you mean neither and I am being particularly dense today? 

 

Another thing I have noticed in respect of RH badges on the likes of Ebay is that brass is very much outnumbered by white metal, (which is why i had thought brass may not have existed in the first place), although I appreciate much of what is for sale may be contemporary copies.

 

I have sufficient confidence when adding to my small collection of medals online, in terms of spotting a "wrong un"; unfortunately i am struggling a bit to identify what may or may not be a "genuine" badge.

 

Anyway, many regards and thanks again.

 

 

What this picture proves is that the 6th RH were wearing brass badges in 1915, this cannot be said with regards to the other Bns untill you have photographic evidence.

With regard to buying badges on Ebay unless you are confident dont buy! Most of the brass badges there are copies.

Only buy badges from established militaria dealers.

 

As an aside here are a selection of brass badges worn by the Canadian 42nd. 73rd CEF Battalions, various die types, gauge materialsand finishes.

[thefoostybadger]

@ronmarsden Thank you very much for your continued help/ education.....i will do my best to ensure your time has not been wasted!

 

I suppose the misconception I had been under was that (obviously allowing for differences between OR/COs) was that all genuine badges would be exactly the same in terms of finish ect.

 

I have only bought a few badges on ebay, reason being it is mostly difficult to tell from the quality of the picture, how genuine the item is. One badge i bought is very obviously of poor quality and have not used ebay since.

 

Is there a badge/insignia equivalent of "The Medal Yearbook" anyone can recommend that  would be useful for someone looking to start from a low level in educating oneself sufficiently to begin collecting more seriously? 

 

Regards TFB  

[ronmarsden]

Your best bet would be to join the British Commonwealth Badge Forum.

Ron.

[thefoostybadger]

Thanks for the suggestion, and also for dealing with my original query. Much appreciated

[max7474]

For the record the only scottish infantry badge authorized for production in brass in 1916 was the Royal Scots.  The ACD records are quite clear on this.  There is the documentary record of this on here https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2871

Edited 3 October , 2020 by max7474

[max7474]

The answer to dating the Lacesset/it standardization is 1925  

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2544157

[thefoostybadger]

@max7474

Thanks very much for the info and link! 

[max7474]

I would also point out that the Canadian Brass badge is not the same badge as shown in the 1915 photo for the simple reason that before 1916 the Black Watch Tf battalions cap badges were not the same as the Regular badges.  From 1908-16 the TF Battalions wore their own badge in w/m which omitted the sphinx.  In 1916 it was decided that TF would be issued the Regular Army badges.

 

Edited 3 October , 2020 by max7474