Variations on a theme: Turkish Modified P1907 Bayonets

[4thGordons]

I have had one of these for ages and I think posted it before here - but I just found another which I purchased because it had some interesting variations with the first

One started life as a 1911 EFD Bayonet (so with quillon) and interestingly is Australian ownership marked.

The other is much harder to make out the manufacturer but appears to be 12 191? dated.

The first one appears to have had the original crossgaurd reshaped and extended by welding on parts whereas the second appears to have had a completely new crossguard added.

The scabbards are also different in the frog stud shape and tip.

 

Anyway - for reference purposes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JMB1943]

Chris,

 

Two interesting cut-down P.'07's that you have there; the Turkish credo apparently was waste not, want not.

The Crown / M number / Italic B on the second is found only on bayonets made by MOLE.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[AndyBsk]

Ugly refurbishments, anyway functionable for turkish soldiers, rework to M890/03 configuration in late 30ies, shortened blades, new numerals.

The left scabbard could be from Arisaka, bented and shortened.

[trajan]

I have never seen one of those over here - I guess that they all went with loads of Ersatz and other bayonets to the USA in the 1970's. Yes, the Turks were very much into 'waste not want not', and so the various 'Mauser' rifles they were producing from the 1920's up until the 1930's from various bits and pieces - and also those 'Enfauser's'!

[4thGordons]

Still trying to sort out since the flood of June 2019... rediscovered a couple more

 

So while they were together I took a couple of snaps.

Plus a genuine Turkish interloper.

 

1907s

 

 

[trajan]

You are certainly a chappie with wide tastes Chris! I am impressed by those ones!

 

For what it is worth, my current thoughts on these 'Turked' bayonets are as follows - paraphrasing and adapting for here the concluding paragraph of an article of mine I understand will appear early 2021;

 

"The explanation for the survival in Turkish use of both the Gew.98 rifles and their bayonets into the 1920’s and 1930’s is easy to explain. The Mauser bolt-action rifle system was not only the most efficient system of its kind ever made, but the Turkish Republic simply lacked the financial means necessary to establish its own armaments industry. Although 1921 saw the creation of the Askeri Fabrikalar (‘Army Factories’, usually abbreviated to ASFA) as a state-owned holding company on behalf of the new army of the Turkish Republic, followed in 1924 by the founding at Ankara of the Hafif Silah ve Top Tamir Atölyeleri ‘(Light Arms and Gun Repair Workshop’),[i] it was not until 1936 that the Tüfek ve Top Fabrikalar (‘Gun and Artillery Factory’) was established at Kırıkkale, and not until 1938 that the first step was initiated there in creating a Turkish-made standard rifle for the Turkish army.[ii] It involved cannibalising, refurbishing, and rebuilding to a standard pattern and calibre the many Mauser rifles of all models the Ottoman Empire had received between 1887 and 1918 in a process that continued until at least 1954, with, at the same time, or so it seems, the shortening of the many bayonets originally supplied by Germany between 1887 and 1903 and 1916-1918 to a ‘modern’ blade length of 25 cm (Fig 9).[iii] ."

 

---

[i] T.F.Yücel, Cumhuriyet Türkiye'sinin Sanayileşme Öyküsü, (Ankara 2015), p.25, who notes how by that time ASFA also owned a rice factory!

[ii] R.Ball, Mauser Military Rifles of the World (5th ed.), (Iola, WI, 2011), p. 389.

[iii] There is, as yet, no publicly available history of this stage in the Turkish armaments industry, but the overall details have been established by many North American collectors of Mauser rifles who have shared their information with the writer.

[4thGordons]

Another one followed me home: it appears from this thread I have been finding these for a while!

And then there were 5!

Another "ER" P1907 (impossible to read the date this time) interestingly this time the scabbard is made using the locket of a British bayonet which I have not seen before:

It is interesting that none of these have the clearance hole in the pommel - which might be taken to suggest they were acquired by the Turks before 1916? Or if they were the result of later supply they came from unmodified stocks.  Does anyone have a "turked" P1907 that has a clearance hole in the pommel?

Chris

 

 

[JMB1943]

Chris,

It has the cypher of Edward VII, so an early Patt. 07, no later than 1910.

Regards,

JMB

[4thGordons]

Yes that’s what I meant by an « ER » P1907

[AndyBsk]

22193 and 22158 looks like came from identical refurbishment facility, identical numbers place and identical crossguards. The crossguard is identical to 13735 anyway that digit fonts is different, which could cause per different time of rework in same facility.

Edited 14 October , 2023 by AndyBsk

[DisasterDog]

16 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Does anyone have a "turked" P1907 that has a clearance hole in the pommel?

1917 Sanderson, new ring welded on to the original crosspiece:

 

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, DisasterDog said:

1917 Sanderson, new ring welded on to the original crosspiece:

 

Nice! Thanks

chris

[landser]

Souvent utilisé par l’armée française en Indochine, P14 modifié.

[AndyBsk]

"Often used by the French army in Indochina, modified P14."

no You are wrong here, this is a typical turkish rework, even similar change as P13 or M17. The barel rings are not present there, same as the lenght of blade is different.

Edited 14 October , 2023 by AndyBsk

[4thGordons]

1 minute ago, AndyBsk said:

"Often used by the French army in Indochina, modified P14."

no You are wrong here, this is a typical turkish rework, even similar change as P13 or M17.

Andy,

I wondered if there was a photo missing from Landser's post? There are shortened versions of the P13/M1917 and scabbard that were used by the French as fighting knives (they are quite commonly for sale in the US.

You are correct that is not what is shown in this thread but I wondered if landser was going to post a pic of one and it hadn't been added yet?

@landser Y a-t-il une photo manquante dans votre message ou décriviez-vous les baïonnettes montrées ? dans ce dernier cas, je suis d'accord avec Andy.

[landser]

Baionnette Remington modifié Indochine armée française (azurarmes.fr)

[4thGordons]

Just now, landser said:

Baionnette Remington modifié Indochine armée française (azurarmes.fr)

Oui, OK, c'est ce que je pensais - vous commentiez un autre type de modification, pas celles publiées. Merci.

[landser]

Il y avait plusieurs différences dans la modification de la 07,

[landser]

Le 14/10/2020 à 10:42, trajan a dit :

Vous êtes certainement un gars avec des goûts larges, Chris! Je suis impressionné par ceux-là !

 

Pour ce que ça vaut, mes réflexions actuelles sur ces baïonnettes « turques » sont les suivantes - en paraphrasant et en adaptant pour ici le paragraphe de conclusion d’un de mes articles qui, d’après ce que j’ai compris, paraîtra début 2021 ;

 

L’explication de la survivance de l’utilisation par les Turcs des fusils Gew.98 et de leurs baïonnettes dans les années 1920 et 1930 est facile à expliquer. Le système de fusil à verrou Mauser était non seulement le système le plus efficace de ce type jamais fabriqué, mais la République turque n’avait tout simplement pas les moyens financiers nécessaires pour établir sa propre industrie de l’armement. Bien que 1921 ait vu la création de l’Askeri Fabrikalar (« Usines de l’armée », généralement abrégé en ASFA) en tant que société holding appartenant à l’État pour le compte de la nouvelle armée de la République turque, suivie en 1924 par la fondation à Ankara de l’atelier de réparation d’armes légères et d’armes à feu Hafif Silah ve Top Tamir Atölyeleri (1936), ce n’est qu’en 1938 que le Tüfek ve Top Fabrikalar ('Usine de canons et d’artillerie') a été établie à Kırıkkale, et ce n’est qu’en 1887 que la première étape a été entreprise dans la création d’un fusil standard de fabrication turque pour l’armée turque. [ii] Il s’agissait de cannibaliser, de remettre à neuf et de reconstruire selon un modèle et un calibre standard les nombreux fusils Mauser de tous les modèles que l’Empire ottoman avait reçus entre 1918 et 1954 dans un processus qui s’est poursuivi au moins jusqu’en 1887, avec, en même temps, semble-t-il, le raccourcissement des nombreuses baïonnettes fournies à l’origine par l’Allemagne entre 1903 et 1916 et 1918-25 à une longueur de lame « moderne » de 9 cm (Fig. <>). [iii] ».

 

---

[i] T.F.Yücel, Cumhuriyet Türkiye’sinin Sanayileşme Öyküsü, (Ankara 2015), p.25, qui note qu’à cette époque, ASFA possédait également une usine de riz !

[ii] R.Ball, Mauser Military Rifles of the World (5e éd.), (Iola, WI, 2011), p. 389.

[iii] Il n’y a, à ce jour, pas d’histoire accessible au public de cette étape dans l’industrie turque de l’armement, mais les détails généraux ont été établis par de nombreux collectionneurs nord-américains de fusils Mauser qui ont partagé leurs informations avec l’auteur.

+ 10 

[trajan]

Needless to say, examples of 'Turked' P.07's are rarer than hens teeth in Turkey... They all seem to have gone to the USA...

[Chasemuseum]

A big batch came to Oz but I heard about it too late to get any.

[navydoc16]

On 14/10/2023 at 10:05, 4thGordons said:

It is interesting that none of these have the clearance hole in the pommel - which might be taken to suggest they were acquired by the Turks before 1916? Or if they were the result of later supply they came from unmodified stocks.  Does anyone have a "turked" P1907 that has a clearance hole in the pommel?

Chris

 

 

This one is an example? 
 

 

Edited 29 April by navydoc16

[Chasemuseum]

Interesting bayonet but I would not use it as a tyre lever. 

[M1890 ottoman]

Sweet ,but I assume not simply due to the rather lower ring it has got.

Edited 29 April by M1890 ottoman

[navydoc16]

29 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said:

Interesting bayonet but I would not use it as a tyre lever. 

it is supposed to be a full length Turkish capture, which is rather interesting. No new markings, hand made scabbard and a grip repair using a turk bayonet rivets. 

kind regards

g

Edited 29 April by navydoc16