Dead German casualites Photograph[s]

[T, Fazzini]

In most WW I histories in regard to the Somme there is a well known picture of a partially skelaton Corpse of German should lying just outside a dugout entrance...was the indication of what part of the German trench line this was taken?

 

Likewise there is are at least two other pictures taken of badly decomposed German corpes lying just outside a bomb proof...taken 1916 or 1918?

 

Would it be impossible to show how the sites look today?

[Guest]

 As you say, there are several variants on this. There is one on the National Army Museum website, for centennial resources, thus:

 

 

 

The main alternative photograph was used on the front cover of A.J.P.Taylor's book on the First World War. Various Tinternet sources all say the photograph was taken at Beaumont Hamel- which would date the photograph- by the mud and the level of decomposition -to September (-ish) 1916 onwards. Alamy suggests the  photograph was taken in November 1916

Edited 11 September , 2020 by Guest

[mancpal]

Really can't help with your question, I just hope that the families of the deceased never saw the photos.

 

Simon

[ajsmith]

The second photo appears in the opening credits of the 1964 BBC series "The Great War". I was only 12 when I first saw it and it has stuck with me ever since.

[phil andrade]

That German corpse at Beaumont Hamel features as a macabre icon of the Great War.  It is a shocking picture.  I, too, was profoundly influenced by it when it was broadcast by the BBC in 1964’s Great War series , when  I was about the same age as you, Tony.

 

Thank goodness we weren’t exposed to a German counterpart photo of the British  dead in that sector , who, according to one witness who had the task of burying them, had lain there since 1st July and outnumbered the German dead in that location by twenty to one .

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Thank goodness we weren’t exposed to a German counterpart photo of the British  dead in that sector , who, according to one witness who had the task of burying them, had lain there since 1st July and outnumbered the German dead in that location by twenty to one

 

  Exactly so- Nearly 40 years ago, as a yoing teacher, one of my colleagues-a Maths teacher, brought in some bundles of photographs that he had retrieved from a dustbin in Ilford Told me the dustbin had been full of thick bundles of photographs but he took a couple as souvenirs. It is thought they had belonged to a defunct local illustrated newspaper (Ilford Pictoiral). All the photographs-which seemed to be copies of "official" photographs and had military censor stamps on the back. Many I recognized. But the ones showing British dead had been refused by the censor from publication.

   As far as I am aware the first deliberate and widespread footage of of British dead was the scene of 1st July burials in the Malins documentary on the Battle of the Somme. I think the significance of this being allowed is underrated. In  September 1943 the US magazine "Time" published a photograph of dead American servicemen "on the beach" (deliberate allusion to pre-war fun times) at Buna. This was done deliberately to shock the American public out of complacency.  Perhaps it was the same in 1916? The Battle of the Somme scenes were designed to shock the British public but the question of how this was arrived at as a policy decision is one that I have not seen documented. Of course, the sheer scale of casualties on the Somme meant that that Joe Public was unlikely to go along wholeheartedly with propagandistic "Britsh Tommy Cheerfully Waves to the Camera" nonsense,of which there is a fair bit in the film.

[T, Fazzini]

The Buna Beach Pictures had to be cleared from Censorship by Commander In Chief F.D.R.  in order to shock the US Public that the War was nasty and had to be fought to the end,,,,

who knows how many pictures were Censored.....In World War I.....to either keep up morale....? If course Ive seen steroview images of kilted soldiers killed 1914-1915...,,even one of a dead German Aircrewman in his plane..In Fance,,that was sold up to 1918,,with a misleading  caption....!! {See my earlier Post of Truth being a casualty of War}]

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, T, Fazzini said:

The Buna Beach Pictures had to be cleared from Censorship by Commander In Chief F.D.R.  in order to shock the US Public that the War was nasty and had to be fought to the end,,,,

who knows how many pictures were Censored.....In World War I.....to either keep up morale....? If course Ive seen steroview images of kilted soldiers killed 1914-1915...,,even one of a dead German Aircrewman in his plane..In Fance,,that was sold up to 1918,,with a misleading  caption....!! {See my earlier Post of Truth being a casualty of War}]

 

   The famous remark by Admiral King comes to mind about how much information should be given out in wartime:

"Don't tell them anything. When it's over, tell them who won."^[

[T, Fazzini]

Seteroview Dead Kilted Soldiers in Belgium...1914?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WorldWarIScottsDead.jpg

[phil andrade]

Nevinson’s painting, Paths of Glory, is pertinent here : a painting, rather than a photograph, it shows British dead in the barbed wire, and was censored .

 

Where, I wonder, are the German photos of the British dead ?

 

There  are plenty of such from other battles, but I cannot remember seeing any from German archives of the Somme in 1916.

 

All too many opportunities for that, obviously.

 

I do remember seeing a German painting- or sketch- of a literal hecatomb of British skulls and skeletons heaped up in front of their defences : it was very lurid, but, I fear, authentic.

 

This was at the conclusion of a talk delivered by Jack Sheldon at the university of Kent in 2006, commemorating the ninetieth anniversary of the Somme.

 

Do any pals remember this event and the lecture I allude to ?

 

I’m sure many of us were there.

 

Phil 

[AOK4]

38 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

 

Where, I wonder, are the German photos of the British dead ?

 

There  are plenty of such from other battles, but I cannot remember seeing any from German archives of the Somme in 1916.

 

 

 

How could the Germans take pictures of British dead during the Battle of the Somme? They were losing terrain so most British bodies were either in no man's land or in the British captured territory.

 

In order to take pictures of enemy dead, one needed either to capture enemy territory or recapture enemy-held territory. This was not often the case during the Battle of the Somme as far as I know.

 

Jan

[phil andrade]

4 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

How could the Germans take pictures of British dead during the Battle of the Somme? They were losing terrain so most British bodies were either in no man's land or in the British captured territory.

 

In order to take pictures of enemy dead, one needed either to capture enemy territory or recapture enemy-held territory. This was not often the case during the Battle of the Somme as far as I know.

 

Jan

 

 

Serre and Beaumont Hamel  remained in German hands until the end of the battle, or even until the withdrawal to the Hindenburg Line .

 

Guillemont was a hotbed of resistance for a long time.

 

Likewise Thiepval.

 

And what of Gommecourt ?

 

Yes, the Germans relinquished territory, or were ejected : but, too often, they held fast for weeks or even months in too many sectors to enumerate.

 

Then there’s the example of Fromelles, where the Germans  had not only to countenance the Australian and British dead, but also to bury  them.

 

I don’t mean to seem adversarial, but, surely, the Germans had their chance to take photographs ?

 

Phil

 

 

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, phil andrade said:

 

 

Serre and Beaumont Hamel  remained in German hands until the end of the battle, or even until the withdrawal to the Hindenburg Line .

 

Guillemont was a hotbed of resistance for a long time.

 

Likewise Thiepval.

 

And what of Gommecourt ?

 

Yes, the Germans relinquished territory, or were ejected : but, too often, they held fast for weeks or even months in too many sectors to enumerate.

 

Then there’s the example of Fromelles, where the Germans  had not only to countenance the Australian and British dead, but also to bury  them.

 

I don’t mean to seem adversarial, but, surely, the Germans had their chance to take photographs ?

 

Phil

 

 

 

The British bodies were mostly in no man's land (as no side gained much territory for a long time in some places). You couldn't just stick out a camera over the parapet (selfie sticks weren't available back in those days)... Besides of that, the whole sector remained active, making it more difficult to have a quiet period to take pictures even in the second line (and efforts were made undoubtedly also to get rid of bodies (bury them) as soon as possible in the summer).

 

Jan

 

[phil andrade]

Jan,

 

Rest assured that I defer to you when it comes to this.

 

There are one or two comments I would like to make, but my wife wishes me to go picking blackberries with her, and O’er the Hills and o’er the Main, Queen Lynn commands, and I obey  !

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

Was that over the hills and far away ?

 

Sean Bean will know 😂

 

Phil

[GreyC]

Hi,

these are photos from the German side, though one is from Oct. 1915 and shows a heavily burned French pilot, the second is not dated, but Somme, too.

GreyC

 

[AOK4]

GreyC,

Your first pic is Somme-Py in the Champagne, not on the Somme. the second is Fromelles.

Jan

[GreyC]

Thank you Jan!

GreyC

[phil andrade]

Back from picking now, let me expound on things I’ve been pondering.

 

The German dead in that pulverised dugout at Guillemont are clearly photographed after the fighting has subsided : the British soldier standing in surveillance says it all : the place had been cleared.

 

The same obviously applies to the Beaumont Hamel skeleton.

 

I’m sure that my Anzac to Amiens book by Charles Bean has a photograph of German soldiers moving forward in a counterattack at Fromelles. It looks authentic, although the Germans are wearing their soft forage caps rather than stadhelm. Is it staged ? There is a dead Australian in the foreground.

 

Fifty years before the Great War, the American public were exposed to battlefield aftermath photographs showing large numbers of dead :  at Antietam and Gettysburg these were  preponderantly southern corpses, but there were at least two which showed swathes of northern dead who had been cut down.  No censorship prevailed, despite the fragility of northern morale.

 

The British people saw a grisly photo of their dead crammed in a trench at Spion Kop in the Boer War.

 

I suppose the Somme was just so bloody awful that it was deemed too monstrous to show in the same way.

 

Phil

[AOK4]

Phil,

 

I must admit that most pics from dead enemies are either from 1914-1915 (and a few from  Verdun) and then again from early 1918. I assume (whether it is correct or not, that's up to others to think about) that the amount of death all around by 1916 had taken away the need or lust to take pictures of enemy or own dead. This kind of pics seems to be again more normal during the offensives of 1918, perhaps to show off how well everything was goind and how much enemies had died (and that a German victory was therefore certain)?

 

So I think some reasons why these pictures are available or not depends on the general state of mind of those that took the pictures and managed to get them somehow also publicly available (there was also censorship involved on both sides).

 

Jan

[phil andrade]

Jan,

 

Your suggestion looks very plausible : I too noticed that there are  photos of British dead taken by the Germans in the March and April 1918 fighting .  I suppose that this gave encouraging testimony in an all or nothing effort to win quickly ; it also reflects the fact that the Germans gained a lot of ground quickly and had the chance to survey things at some leisure.

 

Again, though, it’s a feature of this spring 1918 fighting that the Germans lost many more killed than the British ; just as in the 1916 Somme battle the British suffered twice as many fatalities as they inflicted .

 

Perhaps there was a need to reassure the side that paid the heavier price in lives : provide evidence of enemy dead to compensate for the dreadful cost of mounting the offensives.

 

Phil

[DarrellDuthie]

The battlefield after a Canadian charge. October 1916.

 

[GreyC]

14 hours ago, AOK4 said:

I must admit that most pics from dead enemies are either from 1914-1915 (and a few from  Verdun) and then again from early 1918.

Hi,

when it comes to when the photos where published, that showed the remains of soldiers KIA, I think it depends on who took them, for what reason and if they were published during or after the war. I can only talk about the German side, though.

Here I would distinguish between:

1) official centralised, national photo-production, civil and military, controlled by the OHL and the AA (Oberste Heeresleitung and Auswärtiges Amt = ministry of foreign affairs)

2) official regional military photo-production, on divisional and regimental level

3) private, unoffical photoproduction by soldiers who privately own a camera.

1.) From the start of the war, Germany began centralising their (meager) official propaganda-efforts. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Auswärtige Amt) centralised their 27 Presseämter in October of 1914 into one. One year later the Kriegspresseamt was established. It was controlled by the OHL (Oberste Heeresleistung).  In the early years of the war Germans lagged  behind the efforts of the Allies, especially in the production of visual material. The Presseabteilung of the OHL (Oberste Heeresleitung) gave permits to selected civilian photographers at the start of the war, and coordinated the production and use of photographs as official propaganda meant to be used within and outside of Germany (not identical with the Kriegspresseamt). When the need for the production of photographs and films to support the war effort became more immanent, the Auswärtiges Amt established the „Militärische Film- und Fotostelle“, meant to manufacture and coordinate dissemination of military and civilian visual German propaganda in neutral and friendly countries. From Janury 1917 the BUFA (Bild-und Filmamt) as part of the military, was founded to incorporate all previous agencies and departments on a national level that dealt with the production and supply of photos and film for inland and foreign use, the organisation of cinemas at the front, the involvement and oversight of private compagnies in the propaganda effort, the distribution of film-stock and the distribution of visual propaganda-material in foreign countries. The BUFA had seven small film- and photo units that were attached to the German Heeresgruppen on all fronts. Apart from the 111 films they produced thousands of photographs that were then distributed to the German and foreign press. 

In order to to check the hypothesis, that photos that show corpses were published mainly at the start of the war, and then again in 1918, one would have to examine these BUFA photos and selected German weekly publications like the Leipziger or Berliner Illustrirte Zeitung or the WOCHE.

2) During the war photographers from the military were employed on divisional - right down to regimental level as chronicler, for the official military histories of  the individual regiments, but also for the production of many real photo postcards, that were sold in the Etappe to the soldiers of the regiments. The money earned went into the purse of the regiment and was partly used to support orphaned families of the unit etc. In some instances photos produced on this level found their way to be used nationwide via level one. Many of these photos show numbers scratched into the negativ (black) or written on the negativ (white) as can be seen on the examples provided by DarellDuthie. These numbers were archive and order numbers.

3) Many soldiers, from other ranks to officers, brought their own cameras and they took photos during the war, mostly in the Etappe and second line of defence, but also at the frontline. Permission granted to take photographs depended on the point in time of the war and (inofficially) on rank. These photos were meant as personal mementoes or souvenirs of those who took them as well as for close friends and family. The photos were developed either by photo-studios or laboratories at home or by the photographers operating on regimental and divisional level, who more or less inofficially "squeezed" those orders in, if capacities allowed them to do so. These photos were less prone to be censored  by offical institutions, unless they were mailed home openly or in letters , as every company had a censor, checking at least in part, the mail output of the unit.

 

So, while the distribution of the photos on level one and two was closely checked and momitored by official military censors, photos taken on level three evaded censorship much more easily. And while official photos produced and dissiminated under official supervision might concur with the above hypothesis, photo taken in the more private context of indivdual souvenirs might not.

Not only during, but also after the war, the need for pictures, depicting war-scenes was pressing. All the regimental histories but also large overall histories of the war were published in the 1920s and 1930s. They mostly used photos taken in the context of level one and two, but there were quite a few from level three, that made it into magazines and especially regimental histories. So photos that deemed to be improper during the war were published in the post war years.

GreyC

 

Edited 14 September , 2020 by GreyC

[AOK4]

GreyC,

 

I base my assumptions on all kinds of German pictures and photos I have encountered over the many years I am collecting. I know very well the issues involved with how the pictures were made and by whom. Your description is indeed quite complete.

 

Jan

[GreyC]

Hi!

Another look at my collection brought up this photo, as noted on the back: English soldier Somme 1917. Does anybody have more information?

Another thought regarding Janá hypothesis is if this would be true to the Eastern front, too?

Thank you,

GreyC

Edited 14 September , 2020 by GreyC

[AOK4]

2 hours ago, GreyC said:

Hi!

Another look at my collection brought up this photo, as noted on the back: English soldier Somme 1917. Does anybody have more information?

Another thought regarding Janá hypothesis is if this would be true to the Eastern front, too?

Thank you,

GreyC

 

 

My theory is only valid for the Western Front. The Eastern Front had its  own rules, it seems. You find plenty of pics of Rumanian dead from 1916/17 to give just one example. Probably to show off how big a succes it was and for propaganda reasons?

 

I think the subject could make an interesting subject for a thesis. Of course, it would be difficult to locate enough collections that span the whole war as base and reference material.

 

Jan