9th Battalion MGC (9th Scottish Division)...Divisional Flash

[mikereme]

Hello Everyone,

 

Looking at my great uncle picture and i have noticed he has a dark background type material behind his cap badge.  As he is was in the 9th Bn The Machine Gun Corps...attched to the 9th Scottish Division.

 

Does anyone in this great forum tell me what this material is...as he would be divional troops am assuming its the tartan of the 9th Scottish Division?

 

I thank you anticipation..

 

Mike  

[o j kirby]

Hello,

I would assume it would be a tartan patch. However, I don't know if there would be just one regimental tartan, or if various companies of the 9th MGC would wear different tartans as an identity indicator. Perhaps someone can clarify this?

 

Cheers.

Owain.

[mikereme]

Hello, my thoughts entirely   I would assume that as they are divsional asset just the Divisional tartan would be used.. not individual Battalion tartans..

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that it is probably government tartan No1 (Black Watch). 

[mikereme]

On 10/09/2020 at 21:13, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that it is probably government tartan No1 (Black Watch). 

That makes sense ...if the Black Watch is the senior highland regt...but would want to be sure....he was A Coy MGC giving fire support to the 26th Highland Bde......but as stated his Bn was a divisional asset....so would a generic tartan be used..or the senior highland tartan (black watch) stated..be used. My worry is would it be acceptable for other Bn who are in the division? 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, mikereme said:

That makes sense ...if the Black Watch is the senior highland regt...but would want to be sure....he was A Coy MGC giving fire support to the 26th Highland Bde......but as stated his Bn was a divisional asset....so would a generic tartan be used..or the senior highland tartan (black watch) stated..be used. My worry is would it be acceptable for other Bn who are in the division? 

Apart from the Cameron Highlanders alone (ex 79th Regt) the Government Tartan No1 was the Genesis for all other regimental tartan, so it would be a logical and relatively ‘neutral’ choice unlikely to stir strong feelings.  Short of creating a new tartan at very short notice, and some expense, there wasn’t really any other immediate choice, other than to not wear one at all. 

Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[mikereme]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Apart from the Cameron Highlanders alone (ex 79th Regt) the Government Tartan No1 was the Genesis for all other regimental tartan, so it would be a logical and relatively ‘neutral’ choice unlikely to stir strong feelings.  Short of creating a new tartan at very short notice, and some expense, there wasn’t really any other immediate choice, other than to not wear one at all. 

Brilliant....thank you so much.....I wonder what the other Divisions flashes....would of been?  

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, mikereme said:

Brilliant....thank you so much.....I wonder what the other Divisions flashes....would of been?  

What Divisions?  There is an excellent booklet covering the various cloth badges worn by MGC units.

 

Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[mikereme]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

What Divisions?  There is an excellent booklet covering the various cloth badges worn by MGC units.

 

Thank you buddy....will purchase this...

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, mikereme said:

Thank you buddy....will purchase this...

It is available online.

 

Keep an open mind.  I think it was probably a piece of government tartan as mentioned, but another possibility might be a square of dark blue cloth often associated with Scottish regalia (think the backing to the saltire).  The badge of the 9th Scottish Division was a thistle set upon a dark blue circular background and this was represented on uniform by a metal thistle on blue felt.  It’s not a great stretch to think that the same felt might have been used behind the MGC cap badge.  Just like the tartan, it would have appeared dark, as in your photo.

 

 

Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[mikereme]

I Know the division was a thistle...i have seen a white thistle worn on the sleeves....you maybe right with the background might be blue..behind his cap badge...

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, mikereme said:

I Know the division was a thistle...i have seen a white thistle worn on the sleeves....you maybe right with the background might be blue..behind his cap badge...

The images above are of sleeve badges.

[advsmt]

Bit late to this.  My grandfather was a Sjt with the 9th MGC. I have his cap badge and a photo of his section plus one of another section. He wore tartan from the Royal Scots but I have to admit he did come through from the 12th RS and 27th Brigade machine gun units. Did they all wear Stewart tartan? I have no definitive proof they did. Did he come from another Scottish regiment? I think the men in the photos I have have tartan backings., but would they retain a previous regimental tartan?  By grandfathers service record did not survive did your family member’s record survive?

bryan

[mikereme]

25 minutes ago, advsmt said:

Bit late to this.  My grandfather was a Sjt with the 9th MGC. I have his cap badge and a photo of his section plus one of another section. He wore tartan from the Royal Scots but I have to admit he did come through from the 12th RS and 27th Brigade machine gun units. Did they all wear Stewart tartan? I have no definitive proof they did. Did he come from another Scottish regiment? I think the men in the photos I have have tartan backings., but would they retain a previous regimental tartan?  By grandfathers service record did not survive did your family member’s record survive?

bryan

Hello Bryan,  thank you so much fir your reply... my great uncle was captured but died of wounds... giving heavy fire support to 5th Bn Cameron Highlanders at St Eloi covering their withdrawal on the 25th April 1918.... with his picture ( posted), I believe he had a backing.  He was originally from the  Royal Welch Fusiliers before the MGC... would be great to see your grandfather's pic...

[advsmt]

Hi, can’t find the individual picture of my grandfather at the moment but I had copied the 2 section photos - keep meaning to get them cleaned up. Don’t know when they were taken! My grandfather had 2 wound strips, the first in 1916. Can’t see them on the photo but it is blurry. Looks like no 9th Div arm thistles either. My grandfather is in the second photo sitting to the right of the 2 officers.

bryan

[mikereme]

1 hour ago, advsmt said:

Hi, can’t find the individual picture of my grandfather at the moment but I had copied the 2 section photos - keep meaning to get them cleaned up. Don’t know when they were taken! My grandfather had 2 wound strips, the first in 1916. Can’t see them on the photo but it is blurry. Looks like no 9th Div arm thistles either. My grandfather is in the second photo sitting to the right of the 2 officers.

bryan

awesome picture... might of been taken at Belton Park or Camiers?

 

[advsmt]

I don’t think my grandfather was ever at Grantham. He went to Bordon, trained at Salisbury plain with the 12Th RS then out to France.  As I said, his service record did not survive. So from 1915 through to the end of the war he was in the 9th (Scottish) Division. Two brothers killed another survived with malaria.

[advsmt]

Oops! Can’t understand why it does that! Family badges right back to Peninsula war. Not all actual family hand downs. Scottish original badges are expensive!

[FROGSMILE]

Here you are.  A dark background always works best I think and you’ve done a great job 👍

[advsmt]

Thanks! Still got a few badges to go; I’ll need a bigger frame!

Bryan

[mikereme]

15 hours ago, advsmt said:

I don’t think my grandfather was ever at Grantham. He went to Bordon, trained at Salisbury plain with the 12Th RS then out to France.  As I said, his service record did not survive. So from 1915 through to the end of the war he was in the 9th (Scottish) Division. Two brothers killed another survived with malaria.

Awesome, would love to know what my great uncle backing was!... maybe when the MGC in 1915... he was with the Bn machine gun team and transferred from his Bn.  I know that those soldiers who heading to Camiers where poached by MGC officers at Camiers the station before.. 

Your relative must if done some training at the two depots I maybe wrong though?

[advsmt]

I am sure you are right, as I don’t have a service record for him I think I will never know. If I was a betting man I would say Camiers. I wonder if they kept records? Do you have your relatives service record? Or a Service Number? My grandfather kept all his badges, booklets and those of his brothers and friends. He did keep his uniform but my granny threw it away when I was a child. His brother, Scottish Horse & 13th BW, kept all his uniform, badges, small pay book and other memorabilia. David and his two brothers that were killed - hope the photo is the right way up!