Middlesex Regiment, which battalion?

[Ren2]

Hello, I am doing some research on a great-uncle of mine's wartime service. His medal index card does not mention the battalion he served in. He was attached to the Middlesex Regiment in 1914 as a private. His service number is G31618. If he received a medal  card, it likely means that he served somewhere on the Western Front. All I have is a list of battalions, the 11th - 15th service battalions, the 20th - 22nd Battalions, the 28th - 32nd Battalions, and the 1st Garrison Battalion (Home Service), which had their numbers prefixed with the letter G or GS. Can anybody help me find his battalion?

[jay dubaya]

His medal roll - assuming I have the right man, lists 2nd Middlesex ILC which I suspect is Infantry Labour Company. 

Just realised from the assumed name - the Middlesex Alien Companies of the ILC formed in early 1917 were made up from naturalised Britons whose parents were enemy aliens. The 2nd Middlesex ILC arrived in France during April 1917

J

Edited 14 September , 2020 by jay dubaya

[HTSCF Fareham]

Does your Great Uncle have a name?

[clk]

Hi,

 

46 minutes ago, HTSCF Fareham said:

Does your Great Uncle have a name?

 

I think that it's Francis William Grohnwaldt.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 8 September , 2020 by clk

[HTSCF Fareham]

Slightly off track from your original question, but I started to look around for him and found a few bits and pieces which, if I have the right chap, has an interesting background.

 

Francis William Grohnwaldt, married Mathilde Emlie Dore 1st qtr 1878.

 

Then from Find My Past, this from "Britain, enemy aliens and internees, First and Second World Wars".

 

 

I'll stop here for now in case I have the wrong chap!

[Ren2]

19 hours ago, HTSCF Fareham said:

Slightly off track from your original question, but I started to look around for him and found a few bits and pieces which, if I have the right chap, has an interesting background.

 

Francis William Grohnwaldt, married Mathilde Emlie Dore 1st qtr 1878.

 

Then from Find My Past, this from "Britain, enemy aliens and internees, First and Second World Wars".

 

 

I'll stop here for now in case I have the wrong chap!

Mathilde Doré was my father's grandmother, Amélia Grohnwaldt, their child, was his mother. I know that Francis W. Grohnwaldt, one of my paternal great-uncles, was born in 1878. he was 36 when he joined the Middlesex Regiment. The man in question in the document shown here must be my paternal great grandfather, also named Francis Grohnwaldt. Thanks for replying.

[Ren2]

20 hours ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

 

I think that it's Francis William Grohnwaldt.

 

Regards

Chris

That's right. 

[battle of loos]

good morning,

 

here's the medal card (ancestry) :

 

 

regards

 

michel

[Ren2]

23 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

His medal roll - assuming I have the right man, lists 2nd Middlesex ILC which I suspect is Infantry Labour Battalion. 

Just realised from the assumed name - the Middlesex Alien Companies of the ILC formed in early 1917 were made up from naturalised Britons whose parents were enemy aliens. The 2nd Middlesex ILC arrived in France during April 1917

 

The Grohnwaldts were immigrants. My great-uncle Francis William Grohnwaldt joined the Middlesex Regiment in 1914. If I get this right, some men of enemy alien parentage were transferred into Infanry Labour Companies at some point in the war. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-duke-of-cambridges-own-middlesex-regiment/enemy-alien-labour-units-of-the-middlesex-regiment/

[Ren2]

22 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

 

here's the medal card (ancestry) :

 

 

regards

 

michel

That's right, a cousin of mine sent me a copy of these.

[Bordercollie]

Hello Ren, are you sure that your great-uncle enlisted in 1914?  The reason I ask is that there is generally a correlation between date of enlistment and regimental number.  It is not a precise science but it does provide an important clue to date of enlistment. I also have a great-uncle who enlisted in the Middlesex Regiment; his number was G/6006 and he enlisted in September 1914. 

 

There are surviving service records for a Middlesex Regiment soldier, Arthur Collins, with the regimental number G/31699. He attested in December 1915 under the Derby Scheme and was mobilized in April 1916.  He was initially posted to 35th Bn Royal Fusiliers which was a labour battalion raised at about that time.  He transferred to the Middlesex Regiment in July 1916 which is when he would have been given his regimental number. He served initially in the 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment which formed in June 1916 and was posted to the 31st Battalion Middlesex Regiment in March 1917 before transferring to the Labour Corps in May 1917. 

 

While there is a difference of 80 between your great uncle's regimental number and that of Arthur Collins, I would suggest that both numbers could be in the block issued to men joining 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment when it was forming in June/July 1916. 

 

I have attached Arthur Collins's statement of service from his records courtesy of Find My Past

 

[Ren2]

6 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

Hello Ren, are you sure that your great-uncle enlisted in 1914?  The reason I ask is that there is generally a correlation between date of enlistment and regimental number.  It is not a precise science but it does provide an important clue to date of enlistment. I also have a great-uncle who enlisted in the Middlesex Regiment; his number was G/6006 and he enlisted in September 1914. 

 

There are surviving service records for a Middlesex Regiment soldier, Arthur Collins, with the regimental number G/31699. He attested in December 1915 under the Derby Scheme and was mobilized in April 1916.  He was initially posted to 35th Bn Royal Fusiliers which was a labour battalion raised at about that time.  He transferred to the Middlesex Regiment in July 1916 which is when he would have been given his regimental number. He served initially in the 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment which formed in June 1916 and was posted to the 31st Battalion Middlesex Regiment in March 1917 before transferring to the Labour Corps in May 1917. 

 

While there is a difference of 80 between your great uncle's regimental number and that of Arthur Collins, I would suggest that both numbers could be in the block issued to men joining 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment when it was forming in June/July 1916. 

 

I have attached Arthur Collins's statement of service from his records courtesy of Find My Past

 

Thank you for your suggestion. As per https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/, the record year is 1914. One of the Infantry Labour Companies of the Labour Corps, the 14th Infantry Labour Company, was comprised of men numbered from 31201 to 31800. Could my great-uncle have served with the 14th Infantry Labour Company in 1917? 

[Graham Stewart]

On 08/09/2020 at 17:39, jay dubaya said:

His medal roll - assuming I have the right man, lists 2nd Middlesex ILC which I suspect is Infantry Labour Battalion. 

Just realised from the assumed name - the Middlesex Alien Companies of the ILC formed in early 1917 were made up from naturalised Britons whose parents were enemy aliens. The 2nd Middlesex ILC arrived in France during April 1917

J

As an added piece of interest, the Middlesex Regiment went onto form 27 Infantry Works Companys - numbered from the 1st-27th Works Company, Middlesex Regt and these in turn went onto become eighteen Home Service Labour Companys of the Labour Corps, which were numbered 326th(H.S.)Labour Coy, through to the 343rd(H.S.)Labour Company. As such they all received consecutive Labour Corps numbers from 176441, through to 181840.

[Graham Stewart]

1 hour ago, Ren2 said:

Thank you for your suggestion. As per https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/, the record year is 1914. One of the Infantry Labour Companies of the Labour Corps, the 14th Infantry Labour Company, was comprised of men numbered from 31201 to 31800. Could my great-uncle have served with the 14th Infantry Labour Company in 1917? 

Which I'm afraid is incorrect. The 14th Labour Company, Labour Corps was formed from the 3rd Infantry Labour Company of the Seaforth Highlanders and the new Labour Corp numbers were 7801-8400. The Labour Corps numbers 31201-31800 belonged to the 54th Labour Company, which had formerly been the 14th Infantry Labour Company of the Lincolnshire Regiment.

Idon't know who put these numbers together but if they'd bothered to read the relevant Army Council Instruction regarding the formation and numbering of these units, confusion wouldn't be occurring.

[Bordercollie]

I am afraid the Forces War Records record year 1914 is also incorrect.  If you look at the record indexed you will see that it is

WO 372/8/177471
(Can be found at The National Archives in Kew, and contains First World War, War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index) 

This is the Medal Index Card which you have seen, although there is no date on the card itself it would have been prepared sometime after 1918

 

 

[Bordercollie]

On the numbers remember that at that time they were regimental numbers. If a man transferred from the Middlesex Regiment to the Labour Corps his Middlesex Regiment number would have been replaced by a different number allocated by the Labour Corps Record Office.  Your great uncle's Medal Index Card is quite clear his number G/31618 was a Middlesex Regiment number.

[Graham Stewart]

18 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

On the numbers remember that at that time they were regimental numbers. If a man transferred from the Middlesex Regiment to the Labour Corps his Middlesex Regiment number would have been replaced by a different number allocated by the Labour Corps Record Office.  Your great uncle's Medal Index Card is quite clear his number G/31618 was a Middlesex Regiment number.

Correct - and if I remember correctly the Middlesex Regt was one of the few units to use the "G/" witihin a regimental number, which I believe indicated "General Service" among those recruited during wartime.

[Ren2]

19 hours ago, Graham Stewart said:

Which I'm afraid is incorrect. The 14th Labour Company, Labour Corps was formed from the 3rd Infantry Labour Company of the Seaforth Highlanders and the new Labour Corp numbers were 7801-8400. The Labour Corps numbers 31201-31800 belonged to the 54th Labour Company, which had formerly been the 14th Infantry Labour Company of the Lincolnshire Regiment.

Idon't know who put these numbers together but if they'd bothered to read the relevant Army Council Instruction regarding the formation and numbering of these units, confusion wouldn't be occurring.

You are right, Graham, I made a wrong assumption. I am new to this forum, I have to learn how to interpret data correctly.

[Ren2]

On 10/09/2020 at 11:07, Bordercollie said:

Hello Ren, are you sure that your great-uncle enlisted in 1914?  The reason I ask is that there is generally a correlation between date of enlistment and regimental number.  It is not a precise science but it does provide an important clue to date of enlistment. I also have a great-uncle who enlisted in the Middlesex Regiment; his number was G/6006 and he enlisted in September 1914. 

 

There are surviving service records for a Middlesex Regiment soldier, Arthur Collins, with the regimental number G/31699. He attested in December 1915 under the Derby Scheme and was mobilized in April 1916.  He was initially posted to 35th Bn Royal Fusiliers which was a labour battalion raised at about that time.  He transferred to the Middlesex Regiment in July 1916 which is when he would have been given his regimental number. He served initially in the 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment which formed in June 1916 and was posted to the 31st Battalion Middlesex Regiment in March 1917 before transferring to the Labour Corps in May 1917. 

 

While there is a difference of 80 between your great uncle's regimental number and that of Arthur Collins, I would suggest that both numbers could be in the block issued to men joining 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment when it was forming in June/July 1916. 

 

I have attached Arthur Collins's statement of service from his records courtesy of Find My Past

 

Bordercollie, thank you so much for your help.

[Graham Stewart]

6 minutes ago, Ren2 said:

You are right, Graham, I made a wrong assumption. I am new to this forum, I have to learn how to interpret data correctly.

Apologies Ren2 - I had assumed that you had got your information from another site and they were giving the wrong information out, which sometimes happens. A lot of the members here on the GWF are very knowledgeable and have spent years researching various aspects of the Great War, even down to regimental numbering, so I do hope you enjoy your time here.

[Ren2]

On 11/09/2020 at 15:23, Graham Stewart said:

Apologies Ren2 - I had assumed that you had got your information from another site and they were giving the wrong information out, which sometimes happens. A lot of the members here on the GWF are very knowledgeable and have spent years researching various aspects of the Great War, even down to regimental numbering, so I do hope you enjoy your time here.

(Lieutenant) Bordercollie suggested that my great-uncle was part of the 29th (works) Battalion. It was transferred as 5th Labour Bn to the Labour Corps in April 1917 (about the time when the Americans joined in).  It seems that the 29th Bn did not move out of the UK, but the 5th Labour Bn was deployed overseas. Private Marshofsky (29th Bn Middlesex Regiment, then seemingly Labour Corps) was buried in le Pas-de-Calais, France. 134 recorded deaths for the former 29th Bn on the Western Front - may they rest in peace. As my great-uncle was entitled a medal card, I assume he found himself on the Western Front (France?) in the Labour Corps in 1917. Little is known about the labour units on the Western Front. I have the same issue with investigating the Headquarters my father served with during WWII from the Normandy Landings onwards (Headquarters 102 Refit Group, RASC), very little is know about it. 

[Bordercollie]

Hello Ren the question I was trying to answer when I suggested 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment was where your great uncle may have served before he joined 2nd Infantry Labour Company Middlesex Regiment.  We can be sure that he served in France/Flanders with 2nd ILC Middlesex Regiment because that is what the medal roll tells us.  But 2nd ILC Middlesex Regiment did not form until the beginning of 1917. It landed in France in April 1917.  So if your great uncle enlisted before the beginning of 1917 where had he served previously?  From his regimental number my guess was that it was the 29th Bn Middlesex Regiment.   He would then have transferred to 2nd ILC Middlesex Regiment when it formed early in 1917.  So he would have left the 29th Bn by the time it transferred to the Labour Corps and your great uncle was a die-hard throughout his service.  

 

If you can get hold of a copy of No Labour, No Battle by John Starling and Ivor Lee you might find that of interest.  It not only describes the formation of the Labour Corps but also provides useful detail about other units such as the Middlesex Regiment's labour and works units.  Starling and Lee explain that two of the Middlesex Regiment works battalions, 30th formed in July 1916 and 31st formed in September 1916 were created as holding depots for aliens called up or transferred after the decision in June 1916 that enlisted naturalized Britons with German, Austrian, Hungarian , Bulgarian and Turkish parentage would be posted to the Middlesex Regiment.  So I would say that 30th or 31st battalions may also possibly have been where your great uncle served before he moved to 2nd ILC Middlesex Regiment.

 

Your great uncle's medal roll stating his unit to be 2nd ILC Middlesex Regiment has been mentioned earlier in the thread but I don't know whether  you have seen it and so I attach a copy courtesy of Ancestry.

 

[Graham Stewart]

As it so happens and even though the Medal Rolls show men serving in the 1st and 2nd Infantry Labour Companys of the Middlesex Regiment, there's no mention in the initial Army Council Instruction 611 of 1917, of there being these units within the Middlesex Regiment being converted to Labour Corps units and so I've attached the only reference of the Middlesex Regt from Appendix 106 - A.C.I.611 for you to look at. Hopefully another instruction will be in the official documents showing what happened to these other Middlesex units.

[Bordercollie]

I think the reason there is no mention in ACI 611 of 2nd ILC Middlesex Regt and the other 7 Middlesex ILCs is that they were not transferred to the Labour Corps.  A man could not be posted out of a Middlesex Alien unit without War Office authority and so transfer of these units to the Labour Corps was probably seen as making that requirement more difficult to enforce.

[Graham Stewart]

5 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

I think the reason there is no mention in ACI 611 of 2nd ILC Middlesex Regt and the other 7 Middlesex ILCs is that they were not transferred to the Labour Corps.  A man could not be posted out of a Middlesex Alien unit without War Office authority and so transfer of these units to the Labour Corps was probably seen as making that requirement more difficult to enforce.

It's a strange set-up indeed. I know for a fact that the Northumberland Fusiliers had both Labour & Works Companys, which I only found when going through actual mens Service Records, but where these units went to is beyond me. Nor did they go onto to form Works Battalions unlike some other Regiments and they're not in A.C.I. 611 either.

 I wonder if the GWF would appreciate me producing the whole Appendix of the A.C.I. for our members research purposes?

Edited 13 September , 2020 by Graham Stewart