Interesting entry on grave registration form!

[johnboy]

Has anyone found him on a Census?

[DuncanBro]

Finally got the death certificate and it's even more confusing.  Says he died 30th November age 27, yet his headstone says 28th November age 26!  Looking on Freebmd I can't find a John Virgo's birth mentioned, nor anyone with a first name 'May' marrying a 'Virgo'.  And no mention of being Traveling Show Proprietors, just listed as a Hawker.  Cotheridge is 5 miles from Worcester, wonder why he was buried in Worcester too?

 

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

Has anyone found him on a Census?

Death Certificate says they were living in caravans around Cotheridge - would that show up on the census?

[Matlock1418]

 

8 minutes ago, DuncanBro said:

And no mention of being Traveling Show Proprietors, just listed as a Hawker.

Travelling Show Proprietors - I know the top of that right-hand most on GRRF reads "Remarks" but could they just be the people who reported his death / a showground location??

Hawker is a pretty transient and mobile occupation - not uncommon amongst travelling folks I believe

The two would seem to be fairly compatible to be potentially linked, perhaps before he became a soldier [??] and after the war, before 'flu struck, he was returning to his basic roots [even to his brother's family - Maybe they were the Travelling Show Proprietors, not him] ???

:-/ M

[johnboy]

Alot of people were illiterate back then so dates and ages might have been guessed st by family

[DuncanBro]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Travelling Show Proprietors - I know the top of that right-hand most on GRRF reads "Remarks" but could they just be the people who reported his death / a showground location??

Hawker is a pretty transient and mobile occupation - not uncommon amongst travelling folks I believe

The two would seem to be fairly compatible to be potentially linked, perhaps before he became a soldier [??] and after the war, before 'flu struck, he was returning to his basic roots [even to his brother's family - Maybe they were the Travelling Show Proprietors, not him] ???

:-/ M

Yes, his grave stone says he died at home on leave, probably staying with his brother.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, DuncanBro said:

wonder why he was buried in Worcester too?

Can't answer that - but he appears to have a fine / likely expensive grave memorial for a single man - no other family names on it so perhaps not so local for the rest of them if travelling???

Found any other Virgos in the area??

 

1 hour ago, DuncanBro said:

Death Certificate says they were living in caravans around Cotheridge - would that show up on the census?

Don't know the answer to that one either.

The latest one would have been 1911 Census so unless their 'permanent' static camp around census time [2 April 1911] then unlikely to be Cotheridge / Worcester - but a place to start I guess.

And maybe look out for the 1921 one [19 June 1921] - coming out soon ???

You need to find a name for that Circus / Travelling Show! - Any advertising flyers / posters for a "Virgo" show(s)??

[Unfortunately may have been a big family with a potentially wide range and several shows doing the rounds, perhaps in many different parts of the country when in season - maybe amalgamating when out of season e.g. in November ??]

I think travelling folks with a wide range were / have always been a challenge for Registrations and Censuses [and later for voting etc. too]

 

Returning to family locations:

Pension Card shows mother, Mrs Matilda Smith, Great House, Leigh Court, Worcester - claiming in March 1919 [though the card says "13.3.1918!"- before her son had died!] and paid from June 1919

Ledger shows Leigh, Worcester - in 1926

Seems unlikely to be hop picking in March [hop season Sept/October I believe], in season perhaps - perhaps working in or married into into a house???

Seems potentially rather stable as a location so looks like a reasonable place to start looking for her, possibly her Virgo family too - the best I can offer at the moment

:-) M

Edited 9 September , 2020 by Matlock1418
additions

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, DuncanBro said:

Death Certificate says they were living in caravans around Cotheridge - would that show up on the census?

Yes it can.

I had a proper traveller family (part of the Boswell/Lock family) live near my childhood home, and in 1911, the address was " In a field near 'Rallt, Penmynydd".

In 1901 their address was  " A caravan at Penhesgyn Road, Llansadwrn".

By the 1920s, they had settled down on their own property near my village, and I believe  some of the family still live there today.

The family appear in the electoral register from 1925.

I understand that when he died in the 1940s, the head's caravan was set ablaze.

 

But I would treat dates and places of birth with a pinch of salt.

In 1901, the father and head of this family, a 'Horse Dealer' , gave his place of birth as 'St. Asaph, Denbighshire.'  His wife 'Chester, Cheshire'.

In 1911, it was 'Chelsea Middlesex' for both...

But they were kind, hard working  honest people. The son was a very good friend of my grandfather, and I went to school with his grandsons.

Edited 9 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[johnboy]

Is John Virgo, the snooker player, from Worcester?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

13 minutes ago, johnboy said:

Is John Virgo, the snooker player, from Worcester?

I always thought he was a midlander but I find he is a Salfordian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Virgo

[johnboy]

13 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I always thought he was a midlander but I find he is a Salfordian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Virgo

Well that ws an in off then!

[DuncanBro]

I think this must be my man's family - found on a gypsy heritage website.  A groups of about 8 extended families listed.  Odd how his mother is listed on the pension ledger as Matilda Smith, yet there's a Matilda Vergall (Vergo) listed on the census.

 

1891 HARTLEBURY COMMON

Moses Smith 42  hd b Worcester hawker/tinware
Tehenney Smith 50 wife b Hereford,
Annie Smith 3  
Eddie Smith 16  
Harriet Smith 9  
Matilda Smith 4  

William Smith hd 20
Phoebe Vergal l(think Virgo) 17 b Gloucester

James Vergall 20  (Think this is Virgo) b Worcester,
Matilda Vergall 22  b Malvern, Worcestershire
Cornelius Vergall 4/12
 

There was also this off the web, which I think must be his dad or brother.  It's 6 odd miles between St John's in Worcester and Leigh Court, hell of a way for a horse to have strayed!

Worcester News 18^th March 1915

James Virgo, labourer, Leigh, was ordered up for being the owner of a mare found straying in St. John’s. PC Sker stated the facts.  The defendant said the horse had strayed from Messrs Leake’s, at Leigh Court (where he had been working). He was fined 2s. 6d.