Trying to Name Three Pilots

[Buffnut453]

I'm trying to pin names on these 3 pilots who served alongside a relative of mine.  I've been through the squadron records and compared service records and departure dates from the squadron, which left me with 3 names....but I don't know which name goes with which face.  The 3 names are:

 

Franklin, William Walter (93083). Physical Description: Height - 5ft 5.75ins

Spencer, William Henry George (56446). Physical Description: Height - 5ft 4.75ins

Templeton, Andrew (23462). Physical Description: Height - 5ft 6ins; Hair: Fair; Eyes: Hazel; Complexion: Fresh

 

In the photographs below, the first image for each individual is taken from a group photo of rather poor quality, while the second image comes either from my relatives collection (for the first 2 pilots) or from another private collection.  I've tried to tally the images with the Royal Aero Club licences and pilot photos but these individuals don't make an appearance, at least not in the photographs. 

 

Pilots #1 and #2 were possibly tent-mates with my relative.  The second images for both of them were taken from one of my relative's photos showing the 3 in front of a bell tent clearly celebrating something with a champagne bottle.  

 

Pilot #1

 

 

In the first image, this chap is standing right next to my relative, who was 5ft 5.25 ins tall, which perhaps narrows this down to either Franklin or Templeton, both of whom were taller than my relative...unless, of course, the unidentified chap was standing on a small mound of earth, making him appear taller!

 

 

 

 

Pilot #2

 

 

 

 

Pilot #3

 

 

 

 

Any suggestions or ideas about how I might identify these men?  I'd dearly love to put names to faces.

 

Many thanks in advance.

Mark

Edited 21 August , 2020 by Buffnut453

[nils d]

No 3 seems to be a sergeant  with  pilots wings but wheres the  evidence that  the  others are pilots.? They are rankers which lessens the  chances  of  them all having wings. 

[headgardener]

10 minutes ago, nils d said:

They are rankers which lessens the  chances  of  them all having wings. 

 

Hard to tell whether they're rankers or officers - they appear to be wearing maternity jackets in which case they could be either. 

[Buffnut453]

They're all Sergeant Pilots and their Service Records, as well as the squadron records, attest to that...I just cropped the images a little too tightly to show the wings.  

[Madmeg]

No 3 looks a bit older than the others? any clues there?

 

I've found a possible for William Henry George Spencer - b 1899 Warsash HNT- there's a tree on ancestry for him.

 

William Walter Franklin- surprisingly difficult- assuming he's not the American born in 1893 then he could be either b 1880 Bedminster SOM or 1893 Brackley NTH (there are some after 1900 I have ignored) or 1894 DBY - there are quite a few ufortunately.

 

I see you already found details (but n photo for Andrew templeton.

 

I would guess that pilot 3 is probably William Walter - given that WHG Spencer is easily identifiable and would seem younger than no 3.

 

 

Edited 25 August , 2020 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

I see you have several post s up on this- one looking for Spich aerodrome- not sure if there is anything much helpful in here? (I don;t have a subscritpion so only a few lines of description here)  https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1910-01-01/1919-12-31?basicsearch=spich aerodrome&somesearch=spich aerodrome&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false

 

 

[Buffnut453]

On 25/08/2020 at 08:58, Madmeg said:

No 3 looks a bit older than the others? any clues there?

 

I've found a possible for William Henry George Spencer - b 1899 Warsash HNT- there's a tree on ancestry for him.

 

William Walter Franklin- surprisingly difficult- assuming he's not the American born in 1893 then he could be either b 1880 Bedminster SOM or 1893 Brackley NTH (there are some after 1900 I have ignored) or 1894 DBY - there are quite a few ufortunately.

 

I see you already found details (but n photo for Andrew templeton.

 

I would guess that pilot 3 is probably William Walter - given that WHG Spencer is easily identifiable and would seem younger than no 3.

 

 

 

Hi Madmeg,

 

Sorry for the delay in replying...for some reason I missed the notification about your posts. 

 

I saw the Ancestry tree on William Henry George Spencer but, alas, the tree owner has no further details about him.

 

Agreed William Walter Franklin is a tough one.  Looking through the GRO index in the period 1880-1900 and came up with the following 4 options:  

 

FRANKLIN, WILLIAM  WALTER                             TYLEY
GRO Reference: 1884  M Quarter in CHELSEA  Volume 01A  Page 348

 

FRANKLIN, WILLIAM  WALTER	PEARCE
GRO Reference: 1894  J Quarter in DERBY  Volume 07B  Page 540

 

FRANKLIN, WILLIAM  WALTER	COOK
GRO Reference: 1898  D Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 192

 

FRANKLIN, WILLIAM  WALTER	HESSEY
GRO Reference: 1899  S Quarter in WINDSOR  Volume 02C  Page 431

 

I managed to dig out his service record which gave his residence as "Old Windsor" and, unsurprisingly, his entry in the 1911 Census coupled with his parents' marriage record indicates that the William Walter Franklin on 11 Sqn was the youngest of the 4 listed above.  

 

I'm beginning to think that my only option is to be patient and hope that, one day, someone posts an image of one or two of these men on a genealogy source somewhere.

 

Kind regards,

Mark

[Madmeg]

Notifications often seem to skip me as well :-)

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/spencer-w.h.g   motor cyclist

 

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/franklin-w.w  note joining date is Aug 1917 , aviator

 

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/templeton-a joined 1916, motor fitter

 

Just wondering how sure you are about William Walter as one of these? As they all seem rather young to be the man in the photo.

Frustrating isn't it :-)

 

This looks like an elimination at least https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_Walter_Franklin

 

Edited 8 September , 2020 by Madmeg

[Buffnut453]

Hi Madmeg,

 

I'm pretty sure about the names, service numbers and other details.  My research started with the group photograph from my relative's collection at the RAF Museum, Hendon (see below).  I then studied the 11 Sqn Daily Flying Returns for the period 1 Nov 18 thru 3 Aug 19 (those are all that survive) to identify names of all the SNCO pilots who flew in that timeframe.  The related Daily States file for the same period provided service numbers to go with the names, which enabled me to do searches on Ancestry and FMP to get service records and, in the case of 5 pilots, uncover portraits from their Royal Aero Club licence records.  Of the total of 11 Sergeant Pilots, 3 had either died or left the Sqn before the group photograph was taken.  Of the 8 remaining, I had photographs of 5 leaving just 3 to identify, which are the 3 names in the original post.  

 

 

 

 

This is the full-sized original from one of the 2 photos of Pilot #3:

 

I think #3 is seated in the centre of both images.  The sergeant standing at the right of the bottom image looks to be the same man standing at the right side of the group image.  My relative is standing second from right in the bottom image, and standing third from right in the group image. 

 

According to the source of the bottom image, it was taken at Beaulieu (East Boldre).  The big problem with that theory is that neither my relative nor any of the three 11 Sqn pilots I'm trying to identify ever served at Beaulieu.  In fact, they weren't even close.  Arthur Simmons (at left in the bottom image) was at Beaulieu in the period 26 Mar 1918 to 8 Aug 1918.  During that period, my relative was at Netheravon and Witney, and his flying logbook records no landings at Beaulieu (although he did fly a few reconnaissance training sorties over the area).  Of the 3 unidentified 11 Sqn pilots, Franklin was at Boscombe Down, Simpson was at Rendcombe, and Templeton was bouncing around all over the place.  Essentially, I can't place any of them anywhere near each other, certainly not close enough so they'd be photographed together.  The presence of the Observer at right of the bottom image is also problemmatic, not least because he has no brevet in the group image above.  I think it's unlikely that an Observer would be at a pilot Training Squadron, unless he was going through training...but I can find no evidence of that in the 11 Sqn Observer records I've managed to locate.

 

The presence of an American (my relative is wearing a US Air Service hat and another photo in the series shows an American airman with "17" on his shoulder) further confuses things.  The 17th Aero Squadron was in the UK until 9 Feb 1918 and then went to France.  Now, this American sergeant could have been undergoing training in the UK or he could have belonged to a different unit (either 170th, 171st, 172nd, 173rd, 174th or 176th Aero Squadrons)...but that still leaves the problem of how we get Arthur Simmons, my relative and one of the 3 11 Sqn pilots all at the same place. 

 

Alternatively, the image could have been taken in France or Belgium, and there are some better geographic correlations.  For example, my relative was at Vert Galant with 11 Sqn when the US 17th Aero Squadron was just down the road at Soncamp.  Unfortunately, that precedes the arrival of Franklin, Simpson or Templeton on 11 Sqn.  Another option is in Mar 1919 when 11 Sqn is based at Nivelles, Belgium, and 20 Sqn is just down the road at Ossonge.  At that time, Arthur Simmons and Simpson were both with 20 Sqn and Templeton was with my relative on 11 Sqn.  Unfortunately, by that time, the 17th Aero Sqn was at Colombey-les-Belles or Nantes, both of which are a considerable distance from Nivelles or Ossonge.  The only other American unit in France from the listed squadrons is the 173rd Aero Sqn but that was based in Issoudun which was miles away from any of the more front-line airfields.  

 

I agree Pilot #3 does appear older than the others...but that could also be a trick of the photograph.  I have 2 photos of my Granddad in his RGA uniform from the First World War and in one image he looks about 20 while in the other you'd be excused for thinking he was 40.  I've learned to be mistrustful of assuming certain appearances in old photos.

 

I apologize for this rather lengthy explanation but, yes, it's frustrating.  I feel like I'm missing something really obvious but I just can't make the dates and locations line up well enough to match the names and units. 

 

Yours frustratedly, 
Mark

Edited 8 September , 2020 by Buffnut453

[Alisonmallen62]

Just an observation the larger group photo they generally seem to be deliberately holding their arms to display stripes.  

[Madmeg]

The observer in the last pic could also be the man standing farthest rt back row in the group, or possible seated behnd "possibly WHG Spencer (no 2) in the group.

I make Arthur Simmons also in the group- seated next to pilot no 3. There are a few observers shown in the group.

I was wondering about the "American" :-)

One thought- in the group some of the men appear to be in old style army uniforms rather than maternity jackets- which could imply that they had been around longer.

It is difficult- I had the same issues with trying to identify a group of RFC officers with my grandfather until I seriously lucked out and found a published version of the same group with names allowing identification of most of the men. 

Ref where people were and records though- my GF according to his records was in QM Hospital Millbank from early February 1917 until June 1917- except I know he was actually in Bournemouth for at least some of that time and have the photos to prove it! These have been fairly prescisely dated through identification of one of the other men in the photos who's records do actually show when he was on leave from hospital. The hive mind has also managed to identify a man in my GM's photos for whom there is no record evidence of him being in Bournemouth , so it may be that the official records don;t tell the whole story?

Edited 13 September , 2020 by Madmeg

[Buffnut453]

I'm pretty certain that the chap at rear right in both images is the same man.  The appearance is very similar.  Also, the men seated to the left of my #3 in both images also look similar - certainly the haircut is the same (dark hair, sharp centre parting).  Alas, there are too many options in the list of 11 Sqn non-pilot NCOs to tie down any names. 

 

I don't believe Arthur Simmons is in the main group photo.  AFAIK, he never served on 11 Sqn.  

 

I agree with your comments about the accuracy of the service records.  There could be all sorts of mistakes in them.  Unfortunately, it's all I have to go on.   

[Buffnut453]

Just wanted to pop this thread to the top of the list.  I had some success recently.  With lots of help from others, I managed to track down a niece of Andrew Templeton.  She confirmed that Pilot #1 is Andrew.

Since starting this thread, I've accessed the 11 Sqn records at Kew which cover the period 1 Nov 1918 thru August 1919.  The only Sergeant Pilots in the Sqn records that I haven't yet identified are Franklin and Spencer, and since both are present in the photo confirmed as being taken at Spich, then I'm confident that Pilots #2 and #3 are those two men.  

So now I just need to work out which is William Walter Franklin and which is Willian Henry George Spencer.  Should be easy, right?