Evacuation

[kelly]

Hi all

 

Just finished reading an article in The Gallipolian (No 123) whereby P.O. William Flook RNVR states that as he passed down the line on his way to his designated evacuation point as well as passing dummies he passed dead men propped up

Trying to understand why the MEF might do so a thing to a dead comrade I've come to the conclusion Mr Flook's eyes were playing tricks on him

That said I'm intrigued enough to ask the question do any fellow GWF users know if his comment is correct

 

Garry

[Bryn]

Hi Garry,

 

The relevant extract:

 

At the end of the campaign he remembered the evacuation as a marvellous piece of work. Before leaving his area of trench, dummies were left in the positions men had occupied. As he journeyed down the line he was sad to see that dead men had also been left propped up in some places.

 

I remember also being puzzled by that. I can only say that I've never heard it from any other source and I believe the Turks would have made great propaganda out of it had it actually happened..

[Guest]

I have no stock in this area of research, but one can assume, if Flook's eyes did not play tricks on him, that the dead men were those killed on the day of the evacuation, and there was no time to bury them.  

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Its the old story do we take his account at face value?

 

From my research on the 2nd ALH Bde, there was more then enough time during the withdrawal from Anzac to bury any last second deaths?

 

But that said I have not seen any such deaths, only wounding's during the last soldiers to evacuate?

 

There were few troops in the line, when the last men filed down to the beach, so I am unsure where Mr Flooks was to see dead men?

 

But can we not believe?

 

I show only two deaths that day, both not on Gallipoli, but of cause there maybe others in the Infantry I have not researched?

 

COOPER    Francis    1425    Pte    11 LHR    7R NTOS died of meningitis at 1 AGH Heleopolis DoD 20-12-15 buried Cairo War Memorial Cemetery Egypt

 

McNAMARA    James Toyne    1972    Pte    2 Remts    7 Sqn died pneumonia from measles on RMS "Orontes" listed on Chatby Memorial Alexandria Egypt AKA James Toyne McNamara) DoD 20-12-15 at sea

 

S.B

Edited 26 October , 2020 by stevebecker

[Guest]

I think we have to rephrase our question and ask:

 

Where did Flook walk down?  His steps need to be retraced, and accounts gathered from those who were there with him at the time, so that we can corroborate his statement.  I fear that this type of source material may be non existent.   

Edited 26 October , 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Of cause how did he know they were dead?

 

You just can't prop a dead body up in the trench with out some form or frame, even during  rigga?

 

You would need to prop them up, all of which takes time and effort?

 

Easier to just bury them?

 

I am sorry I am not finding his story likely, at night moving down to the beaches, to see this is a bit far?

 

I would need more then his account to concider it?

 

S.B

[Derek Black]

Even if true there would be no official record of it.

Letters and memoirs are often the only sources to some of the more gruesome and ghastly events on battlefields and in trenches. Often disregarded by researchers today because of the lack of corroboration, official or otherwise. Therefore they are disregarded as exaggeration or misremembered events.

The drawback of war diaries is they omit most things that would portray their own battalion in a poor light, be it running away, ill discipline or anything else that might not look good in their post war regimental history book.

See this thread on Aubers Ridge, petrol bombs being thrown on the wounded are well recorded in personal diaries and letters home. Not  likely propaganda as these we local newspapers and local identifiable men were named as the authors
I've yet to find any mention of it in a book or official document yet.
 

There's things we'll just never know for sure now all the participants are dead, the experiences of too many went unrecorded.

Having said all that, Machine guns at Gallipoli....
 

Derek.

[Guest]

Derek's arguments are compelling.  I have the reverse problem with something I'm researching.  An event is mentioned in official source documents, eg WD, nominal rolls, but no reference found in any diary / personal letter of the event (so far, but still looking).  Frustrating!

 

Did someone say "machine guns at gallipoli"?  Now that's another bugbear.

[Guest]

I'd be interested to see if @emrezmen has any data from the Ottoman perspective.  Were there any accounts by them regarding finding dead men along the trenches soon after the evacuation?  I suspect not, but worth getting his input.  

Edited 27 October , 2020 by Guest

[emrezmen]

There are a number of NCO/officer diaries/memoirs that contain post-evacuation impressions from Helles, Suvla and the Anzac, but none of them have a reference to dead men abandoned in the trenches. (At least, I haven't seen one yet) Major Eyüp Durukan, an artillery officer from the Dardanelles Fortified Area Command, mentions coming across the body of a French soldier not so far from his trench when he walked the battlefield three months after the evacuation. Ibrahim Arikan, a NCO from the 61st Regiment, whose account on post-evacuation Gallipoli is probably the most comprehensive among all others, mentions seeing decomposing bodies of British and the French soldiers immediately after the evacuation, but obviously not within the network of trenches. (I can share the books that I went over if you like)

 

 

 

Edited 28 October , 2020 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Emrezmen,

 

Mate I show those men as

 

Ibrahim Arikan     61st Regt - 3Bn - 9Co   as a Sgt/officer Appl he must have been made officer later in the war?

 

Eyüp Bey (Durukan)    Artillery officer Dardanelles Fortified Area Command    Maj        Top.1319-2 graduated class 1903 Maj Gen 1935 R:21.4.1941

 

What was the name of their books?
 

Cheers

 

S.B

[emrezmen]

55 minutes ago, stevebecker said:

Emrezmen,

 

Mate I show those men as

 

Ibrahim Arikan     61st Regt - 3Bn - 9Co   as a Sgt/officer Appl he must have been made officer later in the war?

 

Eyüp Bey (Durukan)    Artillery officer Dardanelles Fortified Area Command    Maj        Top.1319-2 graduated class 1903 Maj Gen 1935 R:21.4.1941

 

What was the name of their books?
 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

Sorry, he was a non-commissioned officer who never got promoted to an officer. Edited my previous entry, thanks. His memoir:

 

A Soldier in the Ottoman Army: Gallipoli-Galicia-Palestine Memories of a Mehmetcik (Osmanlı Ordusunda Bir Nefer Bir Mehmetçiğin Çanakkale-Galiçya-Filistin Cephesi Anıları)

 

 

Eyüp's memoir:

 

From Gallipoli to Mudros (1915-1918): A Life in Diaries III (Çanakkale’den Mondros’a (1915-1918) Günlüklerde Bir Ömür – III)

Edited 28 October , 2020 by emrezmen

[Guest]

6 hours ago, emrezmen said:

There are a number of NCO/officer diaries/memoirs that contain post-evacuation impressions from Helles, Suvla and the Anzac, but none of them have a reference to dead men abandoned in the trenches. (At least, I haven't seen one yet) 

 

 

 

Many thanks for your input Emrezmen.  It's appreciated.  I suspect that if the dead men were seen in trenches soon after the evacuation by any of the Ottoman soldiers, the latter's personal accounts were either not published, or never written or diarised.   We'll never know.

 

I think given that P.O. William Flook RNVR was more than likely British (ie not from one of the Dominions), the question of where he walked is better left to our British GWF comrades (any ideas @IPT?).  I'm sure they can provide some background biographical info about Flook.

Edited 29 October , 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Thank you I'll look for them.

 

S.B

[IPT]

3 hours ago, jay26thBn said:

I think given that P.O. William Flook RNVR was more than likely British (ie not from one of the Dominions), the question of where he walked is better left to our British GWF comrades (any ideas @IPT?).  I'm sure they can provide some background biographical info about Flook.

 

Could be 1/845 P.O. William Charles Flook, D Coy, Drake Battalion? 
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7271546

 

but you need someone brainier than me. You could ask in the Naval section of the forum.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, IPT said:

 

Could be 1/845 P.O. William Charles Flook, D Coy, Drake Battalion? 
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7271546

 

but you need someone brainier than me. You could ask in the Naval section of the forum.

thanks mate.  A pretty damn good find.

 

anyone you have in mind to ping and rope in from that area?  

[michaeldr]

12 hours ago, IPT said:

Could be 1/845 P.O. William Charles Flook, D Coy, Drake Battalion? 

 

On 21/08/2020 at 10:48, kelly said:

an article in The Gallipolian (No 123) whereby P.O. William Flook RNVR

 

Looking at the journal in question confirms that this story is about the service of P.O. (Bristol 1/845) William Charles Flook, RNVR, Drake Battalion, RND.

However it should be noted that the article is not strictly autobiographical. It was written in 1979 based upon "an early meeting with Flookie"

Edited 29 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[horatio2]

I would take CPO FLOOK's sensational third-hand report with a very large pinch of salt.

In the three days ( 6 - 9 January inclusive) before the evacuation of the RND's section of the front at Helles there were eight RND deaths ashore. Any 'last minute' casualties whose bodies were lost/unburied would be commemorated on the Helles Memorial. There is only one such and he died in 11th CCS of heart disease..

Edited 29 October , 2020 by horatio2

[michaeldr]

Like H2, I take this with a pinch of salt, having the very strongest doubts about the veracity of this story. I have never heard of anything even remotely like it happening on Gallipoli in January 1916.

 

However, it would be wrong for me to suggest that it is impossible: stranger things have happened.

Take for instance an example from the second round: Operation Mincemeat

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat

and https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4041661/MICHAEL,%20GLYNDWR/

noting the remark “Mr Michael posthumously served his country”

Edited 29 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

Giving ex-Acting CPO Flook the full benefit of any doubts, he may simply and genuinely have been mistaken here. Notwithstanding any problems arising from it not being a first hand account, he was 87 years old when he told this story in 1979 and his memory may not have been as clear as it once was.

A withdrawal after such a harsh campaign and one conducted under the noses of the enemy, must have been a very anxious time for all who took part. Particularly for men who were already so weakened by months of continual bombardment, long hours with no rest, poor diet and in many cases sickness.

Perhaps, when he was passing along the trench in the dark that night, what Flook actually saw was one or more of the dummies being left in place.

 

This is from 'With the Scottish Rifles 1914-1919' by Colonel J M Findlay DSO:

“Turkish aeroplanes were very active at this time, and one of their pilots who was circling over Achi Baba suddenly dived down for our line and flattening out passed right along Plymouth Avenue, which we were occupying, at a height of only about 100 feet. We fortunately had dressed up dummy figures with blankets to represent men sleeping on the fire steps in the support line as by this time there were very few troops left. The dummies must have deceived the observer in the enemy plane.”

Edited 1 November , 2020 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

Not completely off topic; this thread has reminded me of another member of the RND and his recollection of that last night

 

 

Evacuation of the Dardanelles

by Ivan Heald (Hood Battalion)

 

So quietly we left our trench

That night, yet this I know -

As we stole down to Sedd-el-Bahr

Our dead mates heard us go

 

As I came down the Boyau Nord

A dead hand touched my sleeve,

A dead hand from the parapet

Reached out and plucked my sleeve.

 

'Oh, what is toward, O mate o' mine,

That ye pass with muffled tread,

And there comes no guard for the firing-trench.

The trench won by your dead?

 

The dawn was springing on the hills,

'Twas time to put to sea,

But all along the Boyau Nord,

A dead voice followed me.

 

'Oh, little I thought', a voice did say,

'That ever a lad of Tyne

Would leave me lone in the cold trench side.

And him a mate of mine.'

 

We sailed away from Sedd-el-Bahr,

We are sailing home on leave.

But this I know – through all the years

Dead hands will pluck my sleeve.