The daily list of dead and wounded

[steve4016]

Hi.

I am trying to tie down when and how 4016 F H Matthews was wounded.

I know my grandfather has wound stripes, he says he got hit by shrapnel a couple of times and took a bullet another time.

I have found some records in Forces War Records.co .uk 

They show a report date of 16/12/1914; Wounded; Flanders; with an Archive ref DT13021915  Does that mean he was wounded on the 16/12/141914?

The next on is

A report date of 17/05/1915; Wounded; Flanders; with an Archive ref DT03061915  Does that mean he was wounded on the 17/05/1915?

and finally

in 1918 the following;

Report date 29/05/1918; Wounded; Does not say location but it does give a War Office Daily List No as 5578.

I tracked that to the Weekly Casualty Lists No 44 and I can see his name on the list but it tells me no more. 

So again, does the 29/05/1918 have relevance to the date he was injured.

 

My thinking is, if I know when he was injured and I know from the battalion diary were they were on that day, i will know where he was injured. 

 

Thanks in advance for any help on this. 

Steve. 

 

 

[ForeignGong]

Hi

This curtesy of FMP 

[clk]

Hi Steve,

 

The War Office Casualty List dates usually post date the date of actual wounding by several weeks. One way to try to date the actual date of wounding that sometimes works is to find a copy of the list in question - for example 'hit' #3 here. Then look for surviving service records for other men from his regiment shown on it* (ideally you might find some for men from his battalion), and see when they were recorded as wounded. Hopefully you may find a commonality within a day or so, which might allow you to make a reasonable inference about your grandfather, which you could then cross reference back to the war diary.

 

*Edit:

For me the easiest and quickest way to do that would be to use FMP. From their search page (here) put 'Rifle Brigade' in the 'Regiment' field, then in 'Soldier Number' field drop the 1st digit of the service number and replace it with a '*'.

 

By doing that you should pick up any records for the man from the casualty list who might have had a prefix to his service number, as well as those that didn't.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 7 August , 2020 by clk

[PRC]

Additionally worth checking the men who are shown in the category "Killed" and from the same Regiment - that gives you the simpler option of checking CWGC to confirm Battalion, date of death and location to look for patterns before you go looking for their surviving service records. May also be worth a quick check of CWGC for those shown as "Wounded" as it's not unknown for those to have "Died of Wounds" on the same day and appear as such in a subsequent Casualty List.

 

Unfortunately I could only find one Casualty List in a newspaper and that only has him as a casualty from his unit, the Rifle Brigade.

 

It appears in the edition of The Scotsman dated February 13, 1915 and a number of other regional newspapers of the time.

 

(Source - FindMyPast)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[bifbas]

Good morning

 

I am a long time user of Ancestry for WW1 researches but I see many members favour FMP. I can't afford both - can you give me the advantages of FMP over Ancestry please?

 

many thanks

 

bifbas

 

 

[PRC]

Hi,

 

Suggest you do a forum search, this subject has been debated numerous times and the general consensus is whatever works for you. There certainly isn't any forum wide bias towards FMP over Ancestry here in the Forum in my experience, - or Fold3, The Genealogist or Forces War Records for that matter.

 

As a researcher on a very strict budget I have to take my sources where I can find them. When my local library service offered Ancestry, I had that, and when they switched over to FindMyPast, I used that. With the current Covid situation, my local country library service is offering home access to FindMyPast. I've had it since March, and while the libraries are reopening mine, for example, have vastly reduced the number of PC's available, you have to pre-book and there is a one-hour sanitation break between slots. On that basis I expect my home access to FMP to continue for some time.

 

Which brings up an option for you if you are in the UK. Check your local library service website to see whats on offer. You may be able to find a way to do library access to one and subscription to the other that gives you the best of both worlds.

 

Additionally, with my old Ancestry library account I can still see the limited free access stuff, (Medal Index Cards primarily), but can also take adavantage of free weekends, (usually once or twice a year) and the occassional free access to Fold3, Ancestrys sister site, when it's offered.

 

And yes, if an unknown relative leaves us a vast fortune, (we don't do the lottery), and Mrs C. has done everything on her bucket list, then I'd subscribe to both plus Fold3 and the Western Front Association

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[bifbas]

Hi Peter

 

thank you for this very pragmatic reply. 

 

I often feel that I'm missing a new data base by not using FMP but if there is no GWF consensus than I'll stay with Ancestry- I know my way around it- and visit the local library in Dorking for FMP. I do not know if there is a free FMP opportunity. Thanks for the tip.

 

Fold 3? I have thought for some time that this is a bit of a rip off. I can get their free pension records as a member of WFA which  I find  great value for money (?£30 pa) - six first class magazines a year plus monthly talks if that's your thing. Genealogist - too expensive for just WW1 stuff; I find FWR useful as an initial trawl.

 

Once again thanks for your help

 

keep well

 

Barrie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PRC]

Courtesy of the Surrey County Library website, (hope that's the right one for you

 

• Ancestry (for records held at Surrey History Centre ONLY)
  Whilst full access to Ancestry is only available in libraries for contractual reasons, you can access records held by the Surrey History Centre from home for free. Follow the link, click on "Sign in" in the top right of the screen. If you have an Ancestry account you can login. If not, click on "Sign up for free" and register your details.
• Find My Past
  A family history and genealogy website with an ever-growing collection of over 560 million family history records. Find My Past have kindly offered library members access to the service from home during this difficult time. Please email libraries@surreycc.gov.uk with your name and library card number for details of how to access, using "Find My Past access" as the email subject name.
• https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/libraries/learning-and-research/adult-online-reference-shelf

Cheers,

Peter

[bifbas]

Wonderful!

 

Thank you for your kindness

 

Barrie

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

Steve,

 

His post war attestation register lists the following

Enlisted 26/10/1910

Overseas with the 2nd Rifle Brigade 6/11/14

Wounded in Action 26/11/14 with the 2nd Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 6/5/15 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 24/6/17 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 19/4/18 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

All wounds are listed as GSW or gunshot wounds which includes shrapnel

 

He became 6905477 when the numbers changed in 1920, Discharged 25/10/1922 under 32a Reserve Regulations

 

Andy

Edited 9 August , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

Address on discharge

9 Limes Road, 

Tattenhall

Wolverhampton

 

Married

South Stoneham

Tattenhall

 

Age on Attestation 17 years 10 months

Attested Woolwich

 

Trade on  enlistment - Porter

enlisted for 7 years & 5 years

Born - Deptford, Kent

 

Wife - Francis Edith Knight

Children - Rose Edith born 24/8/18 & Lillian Francis born 3/10/19

 

 

Andy

 

 

 

[steve4016]

On 07/08/2020 at 08:48, ForeignGong said:

Hi

This curtesy of FMP 

Thanks so much for this reply. And sorry for my delay, I have just had to reinstall windows 10 so been offline since my post.

This is interesting to see, but disappointing in a way, "Caused by own rifle" 

My Grandfather was a regular before WW1 out in India. Its not impossible to shoot yourself with own gun, but he would have been a very experienced soldier so I doubt it was accidental and I do believe some did shoot themselves to get sent away from the front. We will never know in this case. 

Edit, except he was awarded a wound strip for this, and so I doubt his officers thought it was a deliberate self inflicted wound. . 

Edited 14 August , 2020 by steve4016

[steve4016]

On 09/08/2020 at 17:33, stiletto_33853 said:

Address on discharge

9 Limes Road, 

Tattenhall

Wolverhampton

 

Married

South Stoneham

Tattenhall

 

Age on Attestation 17 years 10 months

Attested Woolwich

 

Trade on  enlistment - Porter

enlisted for 7 years & 5 years

Born - Deptford, Kent

 

Wife - Francis Edith Knight

Children - Rose Edith born 24/8/18 & Lillian Francis born 3/10/19

 

 

Andy

 

 

 

Thank you Andy.

And blimey all this info if you know where to look. Was this also FMP?

I had no idea they ever lived in Wolverhampton, I know he met Frances Edith Knight when living in Deptford London and she was working as a ticket collector at Shadwell Railway Station. 

Now I have to find the connection with South Stoneham, Tattenhall. 

Thank you. Steve.  

Edited 14 August , 2020 by steve4016

[steve4016]

On 07/08/2020 at 12:08, PRC said:

Additionally worth checking the men who are shown in the category "Killed" and from the same Regiment - that gives you the simpler option of checking CWGC to confirm Battalion, date of death and location to look for patterns before you go looking for their surviving service records. May also be worth a quick check of CWGC for those shown as "Wounded" as it's not unknown for those to have "Died of Wounds" on the same day and appear as such in a subsequent Casualty List.

 

Unfortunately I could only find one Casualty List in a newspaper and that only has him as a casualty from his unit, the Rifle Brigade.

 

It appears in the edition of The Scotsman dated February 13, 1915 and a number of other regional newspapers of the time.

 

(Source - FindMyPast)

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks Peter I shall do just that. Steve. 

[steve4016]

On 09/08/2020 at 17:03, stiletto_33853 said:

Steve,

 

His post war attestation register lists the following

Enlisted 26/10/1910

Overseas with the 2nd Rifle Brigade 6/11/14

Wounded in Action 26/11/14 with the 2nd Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 6/5/15 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 24/6/17 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 19/4/18 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

All wounds are listed as GSW or gunshot wounds which includes shrapnel

 

He became 6905477 when the numbers changed in 1920, Discharged 25/10/1922 under 32a Reserve Regulations

 

Andy

Hi again Andy,

I am repeating myself here, all this info, can I ask how you got to this. I am in Ancestry, but considering FMP if that is better. 

Thanks Steve. 

[stiletto_33853]

Steve,

This information comes from Army Book 358, Attestation Registers, which are held by the Regiment, or were. Most of the Rifle Brigade Records are now held by the Hampshire Record Office, not on FMP, Ancestry or any other site, in this case the register covering the newly issued numbers from 6905001 to 6972000, they are large and come in five volumes. 

I have all the volumes photographed and can send you the relevant pages, the first page covers Name in full, Date of attestation, Age on Attestation, Place of Attestation, Transfer to or from another Regiment, Trade, Period of Mobilised or Embodied Service, Parish Town, Full name and Nationality of woman to who married. Page two covers, Place of Marriage, Date of Marriage and birth of each child, Campaign, wounds, medals and Rewards of any kind, Discharge date, place, cause, rank and character on discharge, Rate of Pension awarded (if any), Address on discharge, particulars of former service and Remarks.

 

Andy

Edited 17 August , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

Steve,

 

I have sent the relevant pages by personal message to you. However, I have an embarrassing admission to make. These are large volumes with big pages containing an awful lot of information. The basics are correct, however the Wolverhampton connection is erroneous and comes from the entry beneath you man.

He was married in Rotherhithe and discharged to an address in Rotherhithe, the rest is correct.

 

Andy

[steve4016]

12 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Steve,

 

I have sent the relevant pages by personal message to you. However, I have an embarrassing admission to make. These are large volumes with big pages containing an awful lot of information. The basics are correct, however the Wolverhampton connection is erroneous and comes from the entry beneath you man.

He was married in Rotherhithe and discharged to an address in Rotherhithe, the rest is correct.

 

Andy

Hi Andy, 

There is really no need to apologise. I have sent you a PM 

On 09/08/2020 at 17:03, stiletto_33853 said:

Steve,

 

His post war attestation register lists the following

Enlisted 26/10/1910

Overseas with the 2nd Rifle Brigade 6/11/14

Wounded in Action 26/11/14 with the 2nd Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 6/5/15 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 24/6/17 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

Wounded in Action 19/4/18 with the 1st Rifle Brigade

All wounds are listed as GSW or gunshot wounds which includes shrapnel

 

He became 6905477 when the numbers changed in 1920, Discharged 25/10/1922 under 32a Reserve Regulations

 

Andy

Hi again Andy,

I am repeating myself here, all this info, can I ask how you got to this. I am in Ancestry, but considering FMP if that is better. 

Thanks Steve. 

[stiletto_33853]

Steve,

Please refer to post 16, these attestation books are not on FMP, Ancestry or any other site.

 

Andy

Edited 15 August , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[steve4016]

On 07/08/2020 at 12:08, PRC said:

Additionally worth checking the men who are shown in the category "Killed" and from the same Regiment - that gives you the simpler option of checking CWGC to confirm Battalion, date of death and location to look for patterns before you go looking for their surviving service records. May also be worth a quick check of CWGC for those shown as "Wounded" as it's not unknown for those to have "Died of Wounds" on the same day and appear as such in a subsequent Casualty List.

 

Unfortunately I could only find one Casualty List in a newspaper and that only has him as a casualty from his unit, the Rifle Brigade.

 

It appears in the edition of The Scotsman dated February 13, 1915 and a number of other regional newspapers of the time.

 

(Source - FindMyPast)

 

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter. 

What source did you use to track that newspaper please. I would like to expand the clip to see more, if there are other articles relating to events. . As the dates don't really tally with the dates of when my F Matthews 4016 was wounded. Its him for sure, but he was wounded on 26/11/14 and this newspaper is 13/02/15.  I know there would be some delay in the press, but this is almost 3 months behind, and he wasn't wounded again as far as I know until 6/5/15

Thanks Steve. 

[PRC]

7 hours ago, steve4016 said:

What source did you use to track that newspaper please.

 

That came from FindMyPast but it will also be on the British Newspaper Archive site. I believe Ancestry also has a Newspaper option.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Stebie9173]

Steve.

 

There is still a large amount of information NOT online which includes a large amount of information held by the old regiments or their successors. As in the case of Andy's information  above, they are only available where people have access to physical paper records - usually where dedicated regimental researchers like Andy have recorded the information.

 

 

In the case of the Scotsman it has its own website apart from being on FMP:

 

http://archive.scotsman.com/

 

 

Steve.

Edited 15 August , 2020 by Stebie9173

[steve4016]

On 07/08/2020 at 12:08, PRC said:

Additionally worth checking the men who are shown in the category "Killed" and from the same Regiment - that gives you the simpler option of checking CWGC to confirm Battalion, date of death and location to look for patterns before you go looking for their surviving service records. May also be worth a quick check of CWGC for those shown as "Wounded" as it's not unknown for those to have "Died of Wounds" on the same day and appear as such in a subsequent Casualty List.

 

Unfortunately I could only find one Casualty List in a newspaper and that only has him as a casualty from his unit, the Rifle Brigade.

 

It appears in the edition of The Scotsman dated February 13, 1915 and a number of other regional newspapers of the time.

 

(Source - FindMyPast)

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks Peter, Steve and Andy for your help.

 

Regards Steve.