East Anglia Gully

[PJS]

Can anyone help me locate East Anglia Gully (possibly East Anglia Ravine but Ravine was crossed out and Gully written)? The 1/3 Field Ambulance (42nd Division) setup an Advanced Dressing Station there in August 1915. The Main Dressing Station was at Gully Beach so it must be relatively close to there but I don't seem to be able to find it on any maps.

 

Thank You

Peter

[EDWARD1]

There  are a few maps in the 54th East Anglian Div General Staff War Diaries, images 87 and 311. Both show the unamed position  of the 3rd F.A. image 311 is dated 3.9.15. 

[PJS]

It makes sense that East Anglia Gully might be named after the East Anglia Division but that does not appear to be the case. The 54th Division did not arrive at Gallipoli until August and they landed at Suvla. The East Anglia Ravine Gully I am looking for must be close to Gully Beach because the war diary I am reading states that an advanced dressing station was set up at East Anglia Gully by the 1/3rd East Lancs Field Ambulance of the 42nd Division and the Field Ambulance was, at the time, located at Gully Beach.

 

Peter

[michaeldr]

On 04/08/2020 at 20:17, PJS said:

The East Anglia Ravine Gully I am looking for must be close to Gully Beach because the war diary I am reading states that an advanced dressing station was set up at East Anglia Gully by the 1/3rd East Lancs Field Ambulance of the 42nd Division and the Field Ambulance was, at the time, located at Gully Beach.

 

Peter,

 

As a general rule, in this area the inclusion of the word 'Ravine' in the name indicates a declivity running down from Gully Spur to the Aegean Sea

ie: Gurkha Ravine, 'Y' Ravine,  Bruce's Ravine, Essex Ravine, Border Ravine & Trolley Ravine

The use of the word 'Gully' in a name is much less common in this area. In fact I can think of only one - Aberdeen Gully, which is off the west (Gully Spur) side of the main artery (Gully Ravine)

Interestingly, Aberdeen Gully was the site of another Dressing Station, that of the 89th Field Ambulance (and the 88th FA  were in the next-door gully) see Gully Ravine by Stephen Chambers [Battleground Europe series of Pen & Sword] p.177

 

Is it possible to see a little more of the context here or perhaps the actual page of the WD which you're working from?

 

regards

Michael

 

 

 

 

 

[PJS]

54 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

 

Peter,

 

Is it possible to see a little more of the context here or perhaps the actual page of the WD which you're working from?

 

regards

Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael,

 

Thank you. The War Diary is from the ADMS of the 42nd Division, which is here on Ancestry: Click

(Interestingly, there is a Reference to Aberdeen Gully on the previous page of the War Diary in the above link)

 

Excerpt from the WD below (there are several references to it in the text of the WD and at least one other reference where the word Ravine is struck out and Gully written in):

 

 

 

 

Peter

[michaeldr]

Peter,

 

This is no doubt just speculation, but I feel that it is worth considering

 

From your WD page above, quote

Item 1 – Information: This Division has relieved the 29^th Division in the Left Section of the Defences

 

I very strongly suspect that when the 42nd took over this portion of the front from the 29th, they sited their FAs and ADSs in the places vacated by the 29th.

Sticking my neck out, I think that it is quite possible that East Anglia Gully and Aberdeen Gully (or perhaps its next door neighbour - see post No.4 above) are the same place.

As an example of what I'm thinking of

The map below shows the ADS above Y Beach, as it was in November [OC 1/1st FA "will detail one section to form an Advanced Dressing Station at Y Beach"]

but an ADS also appears in that same position already on a VIII Corps map dated back in July. This seems to me to indicate that the positioning of these points tended to remain the same, whichever division was actually in the line.

 

 

regards

Michael

 

[edit to explain ADS symbol is a Red Cross on a Flag

the other three symbols seen on the above crop are each a Red Cross in a circle - in this case these symbols represent Regimental Aid Posts]

  

 

Edited 10 August , 2020 by michaeldr

[PJS]

On 10/08/2020 at 08:04, michaeldr said:

Peter,

 

This is no doubt just speculation, but I feel that it is worth considering

 

From your WD page above, quote

Item 1 – Information: This Division has relieved the 29^th Division in the Left Section of the Defences

 

I very strongly suspect that when the 42nd took over this portion of the front from the 29th, they sited their FAs and ADSs in the places vacated by the 29th.

Sticking my neck out, I think that it is quite possible that East Anglia Gully and Aberdeen Gully (or perhaps its next door neighbour - see post No.4 above) are the same place.

As an example of what I'm thinking of

The map below shows the ADS above Y Beach, as it was in November [OC 1/1st FA "will detail one section to form an Advanced Dressing Station at Y Beach"]

but an ADS also appears in that same position already on a VIII Corps map dated back in July. This seems to me to indicate that the positioning of these points tended to remain the same, whichever division was actually in the line.

 

regards

Michael

 

 

Michael,

 

Based on your post I did some additional reading and I concur with your hypothesis (with the caveat that I do think that East Anglia Gully and Aberdeen Gully were separate places).

 

The Advanced Dressing Stations in ABERDEEN GULLY and EAST ANGLIA GULLY were established by the 89^th (1/1^st Highland) Field Ambulance and 88^th (1/1^st East Anglian) Field Ambulance, by order of ADMS of the 29^th Division, on or around June 12, 1915. They were located in small gullys directly off (the top of) GULLY RAVINE to provide protection to the ADSs from shells and bullets. The location established by 89^th Field Ambulance was subsequently called ABERDEEN GULLY (since that is where the men were from) and so it is almost certain that the location established by the 88^th Field Ambulance was called EAST ANGLIA GULLY (since that is where those men were from). The Rev OSWIN CREIGHTON describes ABERDEEN GULLY in his book With the 29^th Division in Gallipoli and also stated that the 88^th Field Ambulance were “next door” to the 89^th on Sunday July 4^th (pg 151). Consequently, I think it is likely that EAST ANGLIA GULLY and ABERDEEN GULLY were adjacent or, at the least, in very close proximity to each other.

 

The locations of the Field Ambulances and Advanced Dressing Stations remained fixed when the 29^th Division temporarily moved to LEMNOS around July 19^th, the positions being taken over by the Field Ambulances of the 13^th (Western) Division. The 29^th Division returned from LEMNOS to retake their positions on August 3^rd and this was the first time the war diary of the 89^th Field Ambulance referenced the ADS location as being at “ABERDEEN GULLY”.  Note: There is no surviving war diary for the 88^th Field Ambulance (at least that I can find).

 

The 29^th Division moved to SUVLA in the middle of August and their Field Ambulance positions on GULLY BEACH were taken over by those of the 42^nd Division on August 19^th.  At the same time, the RND occupied the Advanced Dressing Station in ABERDEEN GULLY while the 1/2^nd East Lancs Field Ambulance established its Advanced Dressing Station in EAST ANGLIA GULLY, (the RND using the 42^nd Division Field Ambulances in their evacuation chain). The war diary of the ADMS 42^nd Division references both ABERDEEN GULLY and EAST ANGLIA GULLY on the same page in the context of these two separate ADSs further reinforcing that these were two separate gullys.

 

References:

With the Twenty-ninth division in Gallipoli : A Chaplain's Experience -  Page 151

War Diary of the 89th Field Ambulance, 29th Division - June 12, 1915

War Diary of the 40th Field Ambulance, 13th Division - July 20, 1915

War Diary of the ADMS, 42nd Division - August 19, 1915

 

My interest in the location of East Anglia Gully is in tracing the probable evacuation chain of my grandfather who was shot in the face on September 9th and likely passed through the Advanced Dressing Station of one of the East Lancs Field Ambulances. Thank you for your help, I sincerely doubt I would have figured this out without your suggestions.

 

Peter

 

 

Edited 16 August , 2020 by PJS
formatting

[michaeldr]

That's a good follow-up Peter

Thanks for keeping us in the picture.

 

regards

Michael

[emrezmen]

I am also trying to pinpoint its location.

Entry dated 19 August 1915 in the war diary of ADMS 42nd Div states "Ordered 1/2 Fld Ambulance to form an advanced dressing station (1 section) at EAST ANGLIA GULLY near top end of GULLY RAVINE behind first barricade." 

Şevki Paşa Map marks a small British cemetery almost immediately behind the Border Barricade, on the eastern bank of GR. Could this be linked with the presence of an advanced dressing station there? Any thoughts?

Edited 14 January by emrezmen

[Howard]

On this site, it repeats the above quote:- "Ordered 1/2nd Fld Ambulance to form an advanced dressing station (1 section) at EAST ANGLIA GULLY near top end of GULLY RAVINE behind first barricade."

The top end first barricade may be Border Barricade or Essex barricade near coordinates 40.094152, 26.210438

In TrenchMapper, right click and choose Gallipoli, right click again and choose Lat/Lon Jump with 40.094152, 26.210438 then right click, choose Map ID jump with ma_003160

That is certainly "at the top" of Gully Ravine, itself a very long feature. The Şevki Paşa map is also on the (top of) the map list in the left panel.

Howard

 

Edited 14 January by Howard
Forgot the map!

[michaeldr]

Emre,

to back up your Şevki Paşa Map of 1916, it may also be of interest to see the sites of the original cemeteries in this area as they were plotted by the Imperial War Graves Commission when they came to the peninsula after the armistice (presumable late 1918 or 1919).

Regarding the position of the Advanced Dressing Stations, the map below shows those of the RND who had the line east of Gully Ravine at this time.

This map dates from 1st September 1915.

'Front Line Medic' by Michael Lucas is based on the diary of Capt. George Pirie RAMC, and he (on 16th or 17th August 1915) mentions making way for the RND taking over what had been his section of the line and “shifted at 8a.m. to the new line and I have my aid post with Batt. HQ in … Border Ravine.”

Border Ravine and Border Barricade are both shown on the above map, and I have also indicated in red what I believe to be the position of Essex Barricade.

I hope that this is of some help
Michael

[PJS]

Howard, the link you provided at the start of your post should be replaced with this one: https://www.grandadswar.org/war-diaries/42nd-division-adms-war-diary-gallipoli/

My website has several pages with a "WW1" tag and right now your link is pointing to the wrong place.

Peter

[Howard]

1 hour ago, PJS said:

Howard, the link you provided at the start of your post should be replaced with this one: https://www.grandadswar.org/war-diaries/42nd-division-adms-war-diary-gallipoli/

My website has several pages with a "WW1" tag and right now your link is pointing to the wrong place.

Peter

Done, thanks.

Howard

[emrezmen]

Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated. 

22 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Emre,

to back up your Şevki Paşa Map of 1916, it may also be of interest to see the sites of the original cemeteries in this area as they were plotted by the Imperial War Graves Commission when they came to the peninsula after the armistice (presumable late 1918 or 1919).

 

 Michael, do you have a key to this sketch? Thanks in advance. @michaeldr

[michaeldr]

Emre
The Imperial War Graves Commission map is found on the WFA/IWM disc 'Mapping The Front – Gallipoli' at reference MD_024088

Note that this map must be relatively early, as Geoghegans Bluff is shown as a permanent cemetery, whereas in fact the decision was later taken to concentrate the burials there into a special plot at Twelve Tree Copse

 

best regards

Michael

[Howard]

Normally, if you find a Mapping the Front DVD file you can use that in TrenchMapper. Right click, Map ID Jump, but leave off the ".jpg". TM IDs are all lower case but MD_024088 works.

Howard