Mass grave mystery

[Peter Beckett]

In the Melbourne paper today on page 24, a half page article with the sub heading of: Yarra rower among 163 missing bodies.

There is fresh evidence that Lt John Charles Bowden, who once rowed for the Banks club on the Yarra is among 163 men not accounted for from 1917 men killed at Fromelles in July, 1916. There are references to a Red Cross report of 1919 of a mass grave at a field named Pheasants Wood (Fasanen Waldohen near Fromelles).

An Australian government spokesman said there was no official belief at this stage that a common grave of Australian soldiers existed at Fromelles.

But Defence Minister Robert Hill is expected to face fresh Opposition questioning in a recent Senate estimates committee on why the army was refusing to approach French authorities to test two sites.

Peter

[Peter Beckett]

Tim,

there is a bit more in the article and a couple of photos of Lt John Bowden.

Wonder if he is related to Tim Bowden ex ABC & Antartic film fame?

Peter

PS Hows the back?

[Auimfo]

Peter,

I can't find a copy of the paper, any chance you could scan and post the article?

I must find some time and drop in for another coffee!

Tim L.

P.S. The back's as good as it will ever get but at least I'm back to full duties.

[Max]

This topic was discussed some time ago on the Anzac forum and the thread contains some very interesting info

http://com2.runboard.com/banzacresearch.fmainchat.t58

and on this forum here

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...=0entry218378

and here

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...=0entry167454

Andy

[Peter Beckett]

Tim,

will drop a copy down at your "office" on High St.

Peter

Radar guns off and stun guns set to mild

[Guest steveb21]

Mates,

I am affarid I am not in favor of digging up half of France to look for these blokes missing since 1916.

We had to have better info then a wood called Phesants to look for any mass grave.

As this may involve digging up a large area on the odd chance there may be a grave site.

There are a number of Archioligy searches going on so maybe there can in some way get them to check this area out?

But untill some better evidence shows up its a muggs game digging up France for these poor blokes.

S.B

[domsim]

As this may involve digging up a large area on the odd chance there may be a grave site.

There are a number of Archioligy searches going on so maybe there can in some way get them to check this area out?

But untill some better evidence shows up its a muggs game digging up France for these poor blokes.

S.B

It is not be necessary to dig randomly looking for sites these days. A carefully targeted strategy of geophysical survey (using magnetometers etc.) could rapidly prospect a large area. Any likely targets produced as a result of the survey could then be test trenched to see if they are the grave pits.

This technique was used in Scotland to confim the position of the mass grave pits on the Culloden battlefield.

Cheers

Dominic

[Auimfo]

Steve,

No one is suggesting that we dig up 'half of France'. There is quite a bit of circumstantial and physical evidence that pinpoints the exact location for investigation - it's not a case of hit and miss guesswork. In other words it simply requires a little more investigation and inspection via surveys etc as explained by Dominic to prove or disprove this particular site being a mass grave.

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

It seems the Aust Gov't, OAWG and CWGC all require indisputable evidence that the mass grave in Pheasant Wood exists before any commemoration is sanctioned - this I can understand.

What I can't understand is their refusal to investigate the matter and inspect the site to prove or disprove the theory. There is enough circumstantial evidence to strongly suggest the fact that the grave exists but to provide 'indisputable' evidence then proper inspections and investigations need to be undertaken. It all seems a bit of a catch-22 situation that could be conclusively resolved with a little willingness on behalf of the above agencies.

I would very much like to hear from those like Lambis Englezos and Martial Deleberre and get a first hand look at the research they have undertaken.

What options do we have to try and pressure the authorities into conducting a full inspection? I get the feeling they are waiting for the debate to blow itself out and then conveniently forget about it - this must not be allowed to happen.

These are the possible remains of Australians killed in WW1 and it is what we on this forum dedicate ourselves to - remembering their sacrifice. To assist in the identification of the final resting place of so many missing soldiers and to then properly honour them is paramount in my (and I suspect many of your's) view.

Tim L.

[robbie]

TIm,

One idea would be to bombard the relevant minister and others with emails. I am happy to do that, if we can locate the email addresses.

Robbie

[Auimfo]

Robbie,

I've already emailed Senator Mark Bishop who is the shadow minister for Vet Affairs. He has called upon the Gov't to investigate the site fully so I sent him my support (for what it's worth).

In the past I have emailed the minister for Vet Affairs (Dana Vale) to try and prevent the demolishing of 'Red Chateau'. Unfortunately I simply received an irrelevant letter that did not address any of the issues and within weeks the chateau was gone.

I fear a similar result here unless a coordinated petition is put to them. It seems that as individuals we can more easily be given the brush-off.

Tim L.

[Martin Brown]

As this may involve digging up a large area on the odd chance there may be a grave site.

There are a number of Archioligy searches going on so maybe there can in some way get them to check this area out?

But untill some better evidence shows up its a muggs game digging up France for these poor blokes.

S.B

It is not be necessary to dig randomly looking for sites these days. A carefully targeted strategy of geophysical survey (using magnetometers etc.) could rapidly prospect a large area. Any likely targets produced as a result of the survey could then be test trenched to see if they are the grave pits.

This technique was used in Scotland to confim the position of the mass grave pits on the Culloden battlefield.

Cheers

Dominic

Well as one of the people doing archaeology in the Front maybe I should post! Hope a bl**dy Pom is allowed to offer encouragement and advice.

I've spoken to Lambis Englezos about Fromelles. He seems to have constructed quite a strong case both for the missing being "still missing" - and I gather there is some debate about this - and for their location.

As far as I can see Lambis has identified the place the bodies are likely to be through careful use of maps and aerial photos. If they are still there.

I would say that geophyics doesn't work brilliantly in this context, we recently used it on a couple of sites on the Front and aparet from anything else the background noise from shell splinters is problematic, to say the least. We've found that map regression, air photo study and then exploratory digging work best.

In terms of the "mugs game" of digging up the front there are considerations. Archaeology is France is strictly controlled and to get a permit one needs to submit a research design to the appropriate folk. Currently prospecting for bodies is not considered a good thing, especially by amateurs who will be suspected of not having adequate scientific support.

Any excavation will need adequate scientific back up to conserve and study objects that might lead to identifications and to examine the bones, which can also help narrow down possible identities through age, injury, stature etc. Unfortunately it's expensive.

However support for the project from, for example, Vetrans Afairs would alter the picture, suddenly there is adequate backing to get permissions and to pay for the post-excavation work.

Of course if things progress I'd be more than happy to help and am prepared to answer occasional technical questions, should anyone require!

For info, I'm sitting writing this on SalisburyPlain, where many of the Anzacs gong to France did their training (Codford, Fovant, Larkhill etc).

[robbie]

Martin,

i hope you have your winter woollies on - it must be freezing out there.

Robbie

[robbie]

Robbie,

I've already emailed Senator Mark Bishop who is the shadow minister for Vet Affairs. He has called upon the Gov't to investigate the site fully so I sent him my support (for what it's worth).

In the past I have emailed the minister for Vet Affairs (Dana Vale) to try and prevent the demolishing of 'Red Chateau'. Unfortunately I simply received an irrelevant letter that did not address any of the issues and within weeks the chateau was gone.

I fear a similar result here unless a coordinated petition is put to them. It seems that as individuals we can more easily be given the brush-off.

Tim L.

Tim,

mark Bishop wouldn't be Bronwyn Bishop's son, would he? I hope not.

Robbie

[Guest steveb21]

Mates,

We should not be surprised by the Goverments lack of responce as they control our paurse strings and will not commint funds untill there is some conformation of the site.

Isn't that what we want from our Goverment? Not to spend money on pipe dreams. Which dosent stop them from doing it but.

One only as to look at the project to find "HMAS Sydney" lost in combat off the WA coast with the "Kormanan". This has been pushed by all types of people for 60 years but still no looking or finding her.

And as to what any oppersion member or any poly would say I wouldn't take their word that black is black and white is white. Its easy for the opersion to say anything as they don't have to deliver it.

S.B

[Auimfo]

Steve,

If this theory was just an old wives tale with no basis in fact and encompassed an extremely wide search area then I would tend to agree with you.

In this case however, the site has been narrowed down to a specific and relatively small area. In addition to this there is enough anecdotal and physical evidence as well as investigations conducted to suggest more than a probable reason to believe the grave actually does exist.

Admittedly I don't know a great deal about the search for the HMAS Sydney, but if enough evidence surfaced (no pun intended) to indicate a more than plausible site of it's resting place, then I would back a search for her as well.

Tim L.

[domsim]

Isn't that what we want from our Goverment? Not to spend money on pipe dreams. Which dosent stop them from doing it but.

Not being Australian it is not my place to say how the Australian should spent its money. However I would guess there would be great sympathy among the public at large about spending some money (which on a goverment level would be a drop in the ocean) on an archaeological project.

Rather than being a pipe dream this project would have a clearly defined area of reference geographically and a definite answer as to whether this grave exists or not in a particular field is an achievable goal.

Martin in your reference to your reply, a colleague of mine has done geophysical survey near Ypres and has got fairly good results even using magnetometry. I think the problems vary in different areas. You can balance the problem with shell fragments affecting the results by the fact that the grave is presumably a large feature and will show up even with magnetic spiking affecting the results. We had problems with this on the coastal plain near Ostend and got round the problem by interpolating resistivity results. Ground penetrating radar could also be used and with resistivity they would not be affected by shell fragments at all. I think to reject geophysical survey out of hand without even trying it on a site, on the grounds it MIGHT not work results is a little unreasonable.

Anyway sorry about the technical stuff but as you've probably guessed I agree with Tim that it is a worthwhile goal and achievable.

Cheers

Dominic

[Martin Brown]

Martin in your reference to your reply, a colleague of mine has done geophysical survey near Ypres and has got fairly good results even using magnetometry. I think the problems vary in different areas. You can balance the problem with shell fragments affecting the results by the fact that the grave is presumably a large feature and will show up even with magnetic spiking affecting the results. We had problems with this on the coastal plain near Ostend and  got round the problem by interpolating resistivity results. Ground penetrating radar could also be used and with resistivity they would not be affected by shell fragments at all. I think to reject geophysical survey out of hand without even trying it on a site, on the grounds it MIGHT not work results is a little unreasonable.

One reason I am not strongly advocating use of geophysics because if the theories are correct then people seem to be pretty much able to point to probable grave pits. What the geophysics will tell you is that there are features there and they already seem to be clear from air photos.

if we had a wider area to search I would use geopfizz, despite the constraints because of the need to find the features. Fair comment about resistivity filling the gaps. One bases comments on one's own experience, mine aren't great.

Hope the non-archaeologists are rivetted by this!

This bit's for the non-archs

The comment about funding is well made. Archaeology is not expensive in real terms. It's a matter of a few thousand to get a team on the ground to test the theory about the grave site. Full excavation would be more expensive but even so it's not much in the wider scheme of things.

Do you guys have a lottery in Australia? Maybe an approach to them for funds for the dig would concentrate a few minds. You probably need a properly organised pressure group too, rather than individuals writing to deputies. Apologies if I'm teaching my grandma to suck eggs.

[mcderms]

The landowner and two amatuer historians have positively identified the grave site and it's all been discussed before on this forum - I think the links are earlier in this post. The landowner is reported as stating that human remains have been found on and close to surface along with Aussie badges, buttons etc. When approached, the Aussie govt responsible said that they couldn't afford to spend 100% of their resources on one project. The request to plant gum trees and add a memorial was also turned down in a chicken-egg decision as you can't say it's a grave without the investigation and a memorial would be doing just that. So... back to square #1

[Martin Brown]

Thanks Mcdermis

What a classic.

Simple trenching would confirm whether this is the site. You could then memorialise it appropriately.

I imagine Canberra are worried that a positive identification of the site would lead to a call to exhume and rebury the bodies. However there are more creative ways of proceeding that still affords dignity in death to all.

As I may have said there are people who can do the work, sometimes only for expenses but the official seal of approval is needed from Oz.

[Simon R]

Completely off-thread Martin and just a quick one - when you've dug on the Western Front have you found much evidence of trenches/dug-outs etc cutting earlier archaeological remains, especially prehistoric stratigraphy (esp. on the Somme)? Are you constantly turning up worked flint in such areas?

[Martin Brown]

Simon

One of the Germans found at Serre had a lovelyBronze Age scraper in his bread bag.

Not one of my sites but at Ribemont sur Ancre the celtic sanctuary has 1918 British remains cutting the Iron Age stuuf, including a pile of human bone cut by pick mattocks!

There's Roman Villa Trench on maps on the Somme, I'd lok to know what was found.

Isn't this was Nils Fabiannson calls meta-archaeology?

[Andrew P]

In the book 'Don't forget me Cobber' by Robin Corfield, there is the following account by a Pte Barry of the 29th Bn who was taken prisoner.

"Eventually without any more rough handling I was handed over to two of the German Red Cross who carried me to their dugout and gave me a piece of their black bread with a piece of bully beef and a drink of black coffee. The German asked me I feld cold and I said 'Yes' and he brought me a German overcoat, it was wet with blood but that didn't matter. He also gave me a tin of bully beef, and a piece more bread and left me propped up against a heap of earth. It was the 21st of July and the sun was shing brightly and when I was left to myself for about two hours I was able to look around, and to my horror, I was in the place where all the dead men were. I was sitting on the edge of a hole about forty feet long, twenty feet wide and fifteen feet deep and into this hole the dead were being thrown without any fuss or respect. It was pitiful to see the different expressions on their faces, some with a peaceful smile while others showed that they had passed away in agony.........

Could be the same place?

[Auimfo]

As Martin says,

We need some kind of formal group willing to continuously put pressure on the Gov't for a complete investigation.

Until this occurs then the chances of us having any great impact are fairly remote. A more united and coordinated effort will yield any positive results in a much faster manner. Some planning suggestions could be:

Is there any chance of hearing from Lambis Englezos and Martial Delaberre? Are they willing to share with us the results of their investigations so far?

Organise a list of those we should email, write to, petition.

Try to involve more media. (personal stories of those missing to identify them as people rather than statistics)

Prepare an approximate costing for the work required to completely investigate and inspect the site.

Offer more support for Senator Mark Bishop and his call for an investigation.

Have a variety of suggestions ready for the design of any commemoration if the grave is actually identified. (approx costings may help)

As I said these are only suggestions and please feel free to criticise or add to them. Anyone got any other idea of how we can organize this?

Tim L.

[domsim]

Completely off-thread Martin and just a quick one - when you've dug on the Western Front have you found much evidence of trenches/dug-outs etc cutting earlier archaeological remains, especially prehistoric stratigraphy (esp. on the Somme)? Are you constantly turning up worked flint in such areas?

Simon

Nicholas Saunders touched on this aspect in a paper in the 'Antiquity' journal (Antiquity 76 2002 p.101-108) 'Excavating memories: archaeology and the Great War, 1914-2001).

A long forgotten medieaval church crypt was found under ruined buildings in Zonnebeke. Naturally all that trench digging turned up lots of archaeology. There is apparently a neolithic axe discovered by Capt. J.B. Frost of the Royal Engineers at Harponville on the Somme, in the Imperial War Museum. Saunders gives other examples such as a worked piece of flint in the Tolson Memorial Museum, Huddersfield found in a mine crater at Richcourt-les-Bapaume on the Somme.

Offficers supervising trench digging occasionally collected and recorded archaeological finds (of course some famous archaeologists served in the war, Mortimer Wheeler, T E Lawrence, Leonard Woolley etc.) Capt. Francis Buckley of the Northumberland Fusiliers spent 3 years in France and Belgium during which time he collected many flint artefacts. Whilst at Coigneux near Arras in 1918 he even sketched a trench section noting the positions of numerous palaeolithic artefacts (Saunders reproduces the section drawing).

In one of my areas of interest in Jordan the RAF photographed a lot of Roman forts and other structures as well.

If you e-mail me off list I could send you a copy of the article if you are interested.

Cheers

Dominic.