The Greek Y1914 puzzle

[trajan]

I have been off GWF since 18th July what with various work matters and things so this is a good way to start catching up!

 

I have been looking for what might be a WW1 period Y1914 for years, and a probable one was recently posted here on GWF at: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/283434-bayonet-with-a-triple-sword-marking/ where it was correctly identified by SS as a Y1914, with the manufacturer identified by Andy B as probably the Sorlini factory at Varazdin, best known for making medals, but with an Italian-made post WW1 scabbard. 

 

Well, finally this one came my way yesterday, with a Gras scabbard (see below), so why the puzzle??

 

The background to the story, known to most of you, is that Greece ordered the Y1914 rifle from OEWG in 1914, with the intention of fitting this with a T-backed bayonet, as opposed to the knife bayonet made for the Y1903 rifle. My understanding was that these bayonets were made by Simpson of Germany on the basis they supplied the Bavarian army with Simson-marked T-backed bayonets adapted to fit the Gew. 98, and which became officially known as the "Bayerische S14" or "Griechischer Messer". Then, in the 1930's, Greece received a bunch of Italian-made bayonets of Y1914 design. 

 

Now, OEWG had made the Y1903 knife bayonet, and also the T-backed 'Waffenfabrik Stey' marked bayonets for the Greek version of the Gras rifle, with many of these modified to fit the Y1903/1914 rifle (see, e.g.,https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/210221-greek-ww1-bayonets-the-y-19031914/). It didn't make sense to me that Simson should have been making the Y1914 bayonet, so is the answer that OEWG did in fact make these; that some did get through to Greece before August 1914; and the residue then turned over / sold by OEWG to Simson during the great German bayonet shortage of August1914-August 1915 to be converted to fit the Gew.98 as the  "Bayerische S14" or "Griechischer Messer"? 

 

Any (polite!) comments and observations gratefully received!

 

Julian

 

 

 

[AndyBsk]

Yes the OEWG realised too the Y1903/14 bayonet production, anyway is possible that some of the bayonet production were diverted to Simson, there are many errors by reporters, as possible some of the pieces were delivered to Greece, even that some dont believe this. this bayonet is clearly proofed by Sct.George on pommel, so mostly accepted by greeks. Scabbard should be normal leather with steel fittings too oewg marked. First question is the range and serial number correct? as normally it was greek letter stamped. secondly i never saw a remains of OEWG on Simson bayonet, when it was a refurbishment? 

-from Heino Hintermeier info is clear that Greeks ordered  juli 1913 about 200000 M03/14 rifles, the delivery was planed on dec.1915, anyway he wrote that majority of produced were confiscated post july 1914 by austrian army, the total about 12xxx rifles, from his info the rifles were austrian proofed

-when the pictured piece is real so the 9326B is 19326 real produced rifles, when they started serialing in range A.

So i assume some of the rifles were delivered to Greece prior start of WW1 in middle 1914?

That would explain the existence of similar OEWG marked bayonets. or the Simson marked bayonets are refurbishments for Gew98 system and Simson stamped it as rework firma? I dont saw any M03/14 bayonets with austrian proofs to this time, and similar bayonets are scarce to find.

Edited 30 July , 2020 by AndyBsk

[Chasemuseum]

There is a similar bayonet for sale at present, its been on offer for a while

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Greek-Greece-WW2-Austrian-Made-Model-1903-Bayonet-Fighting-Knife/143494608056

 

 

Edited 30 July , 2020 by Chasemuseum
grammer

[trajan]

Thanks Andy and Chasem.

 

Interesting to see that the much more common Italian version is shown on https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SCARCE-GREEK-GREECE-MANNLICHER-SCHOENAUER-BAYONET-SWORD-GREEK-MODEL-1903/133358769226?_trkparms=aid%3D1110009%26algo%3DSPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D228101%26meid%3D707c66fe5b0c49f4b44172f53a7ce0db%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D143494608056%26itm%3D133358769226%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3Ddefault&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219 - and at a higher price! The serial on that one is greek letter (theta) 5397, so conforms to what might be expected from the Y1903's: serial number then letter is pre WW1, letter then serial number is post 1918.  

 

Now, what is the serial on that shown by Joshgg. Looks to be 23614X... My experience of serial numbers is that they usually go in the thousands not tens of thousands... Could that initial 2 be a mis-strike? Odd that it is filled with rust!

[trajan]

I cannot help but wonder if these OEWG Y1914 T-blades are shortened Grass blades... I'll get the micrometer out later...

[AndyBsk]

I dont remember similar stamp OEWG was used on greek Gras similar pommel is typical for austrian M95 production.

Secondly the italian production could be different marked and for this should be rifle markings as confirmation. Problem by crossguard serialing is it could be done postwar by renumbering.

From what i have info of Heino H. 100000 were realised by 1927-30 period, on some older austrian parts. All rifles M03/14 from Austria went postwar to Italy.

[AndyBsk]

Thanks to Chase piece, when the serials are origin is possible the Delta letter was started so minimum A, B, Gama and Delta letters were used, so its possible prior war were produced 40000 of M03/14 in Steyr, so when the austrians speak about 12xxx confiscated so it should be over 50000 realised, in case that the serials are origin M03/14 and not reserialed for old M03 rifles.

To five point digits i could confirm other Sorlini piece in X range with 37xxx range so its possible the italian part of production could be inside of lette X chi and over 10000 pcs. As mentioned before wout exact confirmation on real rifles are these only hypothesis.

Edited 30 July , 2020 by AndyBsk

[N White]

A late one, and Italian, but I am just adding it for the serial context vs the others.

[Chasemuseum]

Regards serials, this is the only example I have.

 

[AndyBsk]

Thanks i assume the left side guard marked should be reserialings, its obvious on italian production there is prefix letter of range, but on bayonets were observed both variations.

[AndyBsk]

In wikipedia is following described "The Greeks seemed satisfied with the rifle's performance and their armoury was increased with a new batch of 50,000 rifles from Steyr in 1914, with the model Y1903/14, presenting minor improvements, most obviously the addition of a full handguard. These rifles were used for the first time in World War I. When the war broke out, the Austrians stopped the delivery of the rifles, as Greece chose to be neutral for the first three years."

[trajan]

3 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Thanks i assume the left side guard marked should be reserialings, its obvious on italian production there is prefix letter of range, but on bayonets were observed both variations.

 

All my Y1903's (about 6-8) are serialled on the LEFT side, in the form 'XXXX Greek letter'. They have the same small size OE/WG mark on the RIGHT ricasso and the single letter 'G' on the LEFT ricasso, I assume for 'Griechischer'... Of the T-backed Y1914's shown here, only ChaseM's example has the serial on the LEFT, with the letter at the end - is that an OE/WG or an Italian-made one? The one certain Italian example shown here (by NWhite) has the maker's mark on the ricasso, and the serial on the right, with the letter at the start, the OEWG ones the serial likewise on the right but with the letter at the end...

 

These differences must mean something - but what? I certainly have hopes for mine being an original pre-WW1 OEWG Y1914 as it came from a dealer here in Turkey who got it from a  Turkish family, so there is that possible Turkish War of Independence souvenir aspect.

 

Andy, I recall that Heino Hintermeier was working on Mannlicher and/or OEWG archives. Did he publish anything? Or is Scarlatti's book on Mannlicher Rifles all that is in print?

 

Julian

[AndyBsk]

I asked the Heino, his reports compared with Sazanidis:

"Der Waffenbestand an MS M.1903 & M.1903/14 zu Beginn des 1.Weltkrieges wird mit 190.069 angegeben.

Quelle: Christos Z. Sazanidis “The Arms Of  Hellenes” Thesaloniki 1995, Summary auf Seite 555."

So when its the number correct, and we assume zero lost weapons in balkan wars which is not real anyway so minimum 60000 were delivered of M03/14 to Greece in 1914 from Steyr,even not mentioned in Steyr books! as the contract was not completed!! From this Heino has no real numbers probably.

So in reality on M03/14 was right side of crossguard probably serialed as is visible on Your piece and Chase first piece, which looks like correct M03/14 delivered by Steyr, OEWG is on left side of T backed blade.

Heino confirmed me the possibility of early delivery of 60000 M03/14 rifles and bayonets from Steyr to Greece prior beginn of WW1. The second question about Simson &Co production, he dont known.

 

Edited 31 July , 2020 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

Andy and others,

 

I knew of the Sazandis book (= Χρήστος Ζ. Σαζανίδης Τα όπλα των Ελλήνων), and long ago saw a photograph of the page with the Y.1903 and Y.1914 bayonets on it

 

Does anyone know of this one? Οι εξοπλισμοί του Ελληνικού Στρατού 1868-2004 (Έδρα ιστορίας του Στρατού, Αθήνα 2006).

 

I can just about read ancient Greek funerary inscriptions but that's it, so I have never bought either...

[trajan]

This looks to be another right-handed marked one - can't read the number, though - but with presumably an original scabbard. Downloaded from: http://www.hungariae.com/Mann03.htm

Listed as a Y1903 but in fact a Y1914. This is claimed to be made from a shortened Gras blade which is certainly possible. I still haven't checked relevant dimensions...

 

Julian

 

 

[AndyBsk]

There is many errors on the hungarian site, no FN produced M1903 bayonets., the pictured bayonet looks like a normal Steyr M03/14, even not close details.

I already researches this some years ago, there is a rifle M03/14 in D range with Steyr 1914 date so the greek delivery M03/14 of minimum 40000 are confirmed!!.

[trajan]

3 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

There is many errors on the hungarian site, no FN produced M1903 bayonets., the pictured bayonet looks like a normal Steyr M03/14, even not close details.

I already researches this some years ago, there is a rifle M03/14 in D range with Steyr 1914 date so the greek delivery M03/14 of minimum 40000 are confirmed!!.

 

Can you confirm the scabbard type Andy?

[AndyBsk]

From this photo not, but it looks like a spanish M93/13 scabbard as real M03/14. Should be oewg stamped on some frog hook and circle cross marked.

I couldnt find better picture, i have somewhere , all is from Gunboard. That was a OEWG piece. Mouth piece is total different and should be visible when look at. The Gras reworked M03 or M03/14 bayonets have total different tang area as used the thick blade into new pommel, the crossguard is too different, so there is no possibility to mix a Gras rework with Steyr M03/14. In Smid/Moudry book is pictured a piece in Gama range, same as in one austrian book is 7xxx Delta piece, so we have all A-Delta ranges confirmed.

Edited 1 August , 2020 by AndyBsk