CWGC Grave Concentration records 62C.A.8.c.8.9 Crater Carnoy-Montauban Road?

[tharkin56]

The concentration of graves details just released show a number of officers whom were killed on the 1st July 1916 were given the same map reference where body found as  62C.A.8.c.8.9. The obits of one of them. Lt. E H. A Goss  states originally buried in crater Carnoy Montauban Road, northeast of Carnoy. Does the grid reference given actually map to being a crater on the Carnoy Montauban Road meaning that 2 officers of the 7 Buffs  and 3 officers of the 7 Queens were originally buried together at this reference before being reburied in Dantzig Alley.

 

I am not up to speed with trench maps, all help appreciated

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

19 minutes ago, tharkin56 said:

Does the grid reference given actually map to being a crater on the Carnoy Montauban Road

Well, just a few yards east of the road, yes.

If you try Tmapper:

http://www.tmapper.com/

input the coordinates in the search box at the top, it will return a split screen view of a modern day map, or satellite view.

The opacity of the latter can  be changed to reveal the associated trench map.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Looks pretty "right". Map ref works out roughly as follows, just E of the Carnoy - Montauban Road >

Tom

 

[charlie2]

9 hours ago, tharkin56 said:

Does the grid reference given actually map to being a crater on the Carnoy Montauban Road meaning that 2 officers of the 7 Buffs  and 3 officers of the 7 Queens were originally buried together at this reference

Not necessarily, the grid reference is not an exact point but a reference to a smaller square measuring 100yrds x 100yrds. The bodies were all found within that smaller square.

 

Charlie

[tharkin56]

Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering how so many officers killed on the 1st July 1916 ended up with the original burial reference sht 26 sq. d contour 110 Empress Trench and were then buried in Gordon Dump Cemetery. 

[tharkin56]

Tom thanks you as well. Are the trench maps available on line as I have a lot of original burial reference from the National Archives. Also total swerve ball, i have ten grid references for 1st July officers that are now on Thiepval Memorial is there any easy way using CWGC records to work it back i.e the bodies recovered from grid reference x y z were subsequently buried in cemetery A B C or commemorated on memorial E F G. I can't see one so may have to do to my own database.

[WhiteStarLine]

As post #2 says, if you put your 10 grid references into the Bulk Converter option, you can convert all of them at once.  You can overlay all modern CWGC cemeteries and then ask tMapper for the distances & number of burials within 4km of the original exhumation location.  You can select trench maps across multiple dates, bearing in mind that any reference near a map corner always has a few maps a bit N, S, E, or W of the exact location!  For your example tMapper says that the National Library of Scotland has 28 trench maps available.  I selected the 1916 one.  By the way I just noticed a bug when it has more than 25 maps to choose from.

 

Here is the original conversion - click on the image for the bigger picture:

 

[WhiteStarLine]

Looks as if this body was exhumed just a few hundred metres south of the craters, allowing for an area of uncertainty around any trench map conversion.

 

Credit: tMapper and National Library of Scotland

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

10 hours ago, tharkin56 said:

Are the trench maps available on line as I have a lot of original burial reference from the National Archives. Also total swerve ball, i have ten grid references for 1st July officers that are now on Thiepval Memorial is there any easy way using CWGC records to work it back i.e the bodies recovered from grid reference x y z were subsequently buried in cemetery A B C or commemorated on memorial E F G. I can't see one so may have to do to my own database.

 

I generally use the trench maps on the National Library of Scotland website. Do your burial records come from classes WO339 and 374 at TNA ? Do you have a particular interest in 1/7/1916 Somme Officer fatalities ?

As far as I'm aware there isn't an easy way that you can remotely access the CWGC database and search for exhumation grid references - would be very pleased to hear otherwise. A memorial commemoration, by its very nature, means there will be no exhumation record.

Tom

[tharkin56]

Hi Tom i tried to DM you. I have been researching 1/7 officers and have read 283 NA records thus far. 16 have some form of grave location this varies from NW of Carnoy to a map location to 62d,sq,f.11c for officers like J E Price and P J Ram both with the Manchesters.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

22 hours ago, tharkin56 said:

… I have been researching 1/7 officers and have read 283 NA records thus far. 16 have some form of grave location this varies from NW of Carnoy to a map location to 62d,sq,f.11c for officers like J E Price and P J Ram both with the Manchesters.

 

Are you familiar with > http://zerohourzday.com/

Jonathan Porter (the author) and I split research / copying of the WO339 and 374 files for deceased and many wounded officers between us for that volume and I have carried on copying officer's files for forthcoming volumes - if things go to plan Jonathan will hopefully have Vol 2 with the printers two months from now. If you search for Zero Hour Z Day on this forum you will find reviews etc. A lot of Jonathan's research in there may be of use to you - maps, locations etc.

Tom

[tharkin56]

Hi yes i know Jon we are sharing research, weekly basis. I am more bio's of the officers but will share anything i stray into such as concentration of graves, photo resources, school records etc etc. I should have recognised your name. When all this is over must try and get to see him in person. I send him a working file if you need it DM me

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

12 hours ago, tharkin56 said:

Hi yes i know Jon we are sharing research, weekly basis. I am more bio's of the officers but will share anything i stray into such as concentration of graves, photo resources, school records etc etc. I should have recognised your name. When all this is over must try and get to see him in person. I send him a working file if you need it DM me

 

Trevor - Since I posted #11 Jonathan has told me that you are the "photo / file swap man" - I'd known of your existence but not your ID - small world

While I'm going through these lists of officers and copying (parts of) their files I'm finding a lot of interesting info about original burials - interesting in light of their current commemoration status - comparisons between units, etc. One fascinating aspect is the often huge discrepancies between eye witness reports for the death of the same man - I've even seen one which placed a 1/7/16 Somme fatality on the Loos battlefield.

Tom