Help with a Navy Record on A Please

[Dazscuba]

Hi could anybody help me with a naval service record on the National Archives. I’m not great at searching naval records.

 

Ralph Toms 

born 8th June 1885 in Cornwall

was the bosn on the Viola

died 18th Jan 1924 in Rotterdam

 

if you do find his service record in the NA could you please put a link on?

 

 

Ancestry.co.uk

[Keith_history_buff]

Hello,

 

This man is Mercantile Marine Reserve. His record was destroyed in 1969. This fate befell a swathe of men of the MMR and Mercantile Marine.

[horatio2]

13 minutes ago, Dazscuba said:

was the bosn on the Viola

A bit unusual to find an MMR bosun serving in a trawler of the Auxiliary Patrol, normally RNR-manned. Are we certain he was in the trawler and not, for example, the Q-Ship of the same name? Just checking.

[Dazscuba]

I can’t find him on the naval service records or the RNR service records and the only thing I can find is his medal records please see below. I can’t find anything else for him naval wise. I have his census, address, death etc.

 

Ancestry.co.uk

Edited 15 July , 2020 by Dazscuba

[horatio2]

As an MMR man he willl not have a naval record, as noted at Post #2. But I would like to know what evidence you have to place him in the trawler VIOLA (assuming we are still dealing with the Hull trawler) and not one of the other VIOLA's:-

VIOLA, decoy or Q-ship, 3-mast schooner conversion. Built 1872, 168grt. In service 20.8.18-11.11.18, armed with 1-4in, 2-12pdr, other names VEREKER, VIOLETTA.

VIOLA, hired trawler, Adty No 6. Built 1905, 228grt, Grimsby-reg GY.67. Armament: 1-12pdr. In service 8.14-1920 as minesweeper. Renamed VIOLA II 12.14. Served as ELENA in WW2.

VIOLA, hired trawler, Adty No 614. Built 1906, 173grt, Hull-reg H.868. Armament: 1-12pdr. In service 9.14-1919 as minesweeper. Renamed VIOLA III 11.15.

VIOLA, hired drifter. Built 1907, 83grt, Banff-reg BF.897. In service 1.17-1920 on misc. service. Renamed DYKE 8.18.

VIOLA III, hired drifter, Adty No 2729. Built 1907, 86grt, Banff-reg BF.968. Armament: 1-57mm. In service 6.15-1919 as net vessel.

[Dazscuba]

Horatio2

13 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

But I would like to know what evidence you have to place him in the trawler VIOLA

I did not put HMT Viola or Trawler Viola as I was not sure it was, I just put Viola as you can see from my original post. That’s my evidence. Please show me where I had put Trawler Viola?

It only mentions on his medal record Viola and that’s what I wrote down as I knew there were a number of them. If I could have looked at a service record I may have been able to identify which Viola it was. 

 

i have looked at family trees on Ancestry and a couple had put it down as the HMT Viola 614 with the above medal  record and I have sent them an email asking how they know this to be but not received anything back.

[Dazscuba]

Thank you Keith appreciated for that information.

Being Mercantile Marine should he have also received that medal too?

Edited 15 July , 2020 by Dazscuba

[horatio2]

In which case, with nothing (at present) to link him to the trawler VIOLA (Admiralty No.614), I would put my money on his having been the Bosun of the schooner VIOLA (VEREKER, VIOLETTA) when she was taken up by the Admiralty in 1918 and that he stayed in her as MMR when she was commissioned as a Q-Ship.

Edited 15 July , 2020 by horatio2

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi,
 

The MMR medal roll tells us that a BWM and VM were issued to "self", which tells us that his service was from 1916 onwards. The value-add from Horatio2 tells us that he was at sea in 1918, which is good to know, given that his service record has not survived.

I am no expert on the Mercantile Marine War Medal. A look at the wikipedia article does advise that 

Quote

One or more voyages through a danger zone during the war qualified a mariner for the award of the medal, as did service at sea for not less than six months between 4 August 1914 and 11 November 1918.... Service solely in the Mercantile Marine, however, did not count for the award of the Victory Medal

Given that his service record has not survived, we do not know his particulars and cannot comment further. If the campaign medals along with a MMWM were being awarded by the Board of Trade, there is usually a comment to that effect.

He does not have a Mercantile Marine medal card in the BT 351 series of records, so it looks like the answer to your question is that he had no entitlement to the MMWM.



 

[Dazscuba]

Thank you Keith new to all that is Navy so apologies if daft questions.

Darren 

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a dataset in Ancestry that sometimes brings up interesting info for merchant sailors, and that is Masters & Mates certificates. It may be worth having a search to see if he had a certificate from the Board of Trade. It is not Navy, but certainly sailors and the sea.

[ernest james]

Hi

I reckon Findmypast have two record cards for this man as a merchant seaman.

there is a CR10 card for him from around 1919, and a CR2 card for his final voyage in 1923-4.

Details:  Ralph  Toms , Bosun, born 8 June 1885, Fowey, Cornwall. Discharge A no 216055, RS2 no 427260

There is a passport style photo of him on the card.

also: Deceased 19/1/24 accident Scottish Standard 146137

Discharge no 216055 is an early one which suggests he made foreign voyages from around 1904 on.

best wishes

ernest james

[Dazscuba]

Keith, Ernest that’s great thank you will have a look now 

[Keith_history_buff]

It keeps slipping my mind that the BT 364 records are available from FindMyPast. 

I get the impression that their search facility is better than the existing one. Some further details on mercantile marine / merchant navy records on the TNA site:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3400
 

  

7 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Given that his service record has not survived, we do not know his particulars and cannot comment further. If the campaign medals along with a MMWM were being awarded by the Board of Trade, there is usually a comment to that effect.

He does not have a Mercantile Marine medal card in the BT 351 series of records, so it looks like the answer to your question is that he had no entitlement to the MMWM.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words. Below is the entry from the same medal roll of David R. Tottle. As well as being on the MMR medal roll. administered by the Admiralty, he also has a BT 351 series medal card as compiled by the Board of Trade.

Image courtesy of Ancestry

[Dazscuba]

Keith thank you v much

[Keith_history_buff]

Thank you, happy to help. In my haste to respond, some of my responses could have been fuller, hence the wrap-up post earlier.

 

[souterjonny]

On 16/07/2020 at 09:18, Keith_history_buff said:

Hi,
 

The MMR medal roll tells us that a BWM and VM were issued to "self", which tells us that his service was from 1916 onwards. The value-add from Horatio2 tells us that he was at sea in 1918, which is good to know, given that his service record has not survived.

I am no expert on the Mercantile Marine War Medal. A look at the wikipedia article does advise that 

Given that his service record has not survived, we do not know his particulars and cannot comment further. If the campaign medals along with a MMWM were being awarded by the Board of Trade, there is usually a comment to that effect.

He does not have a Mercantile Marine medal card in the BT 351 series of records, so it looks like the answer to your question is that he had no entitlement to the MMWM.



 

He was an AB on the new Orient Liner Orama in Sydney 0n the 11Apr 1912 age 27 and born Polruan. She was sunk by the U 62 19 Oct 1917 and not on the survivors list. But none the less working for Orient Line as did my father in law , a part of the ships company were N.V.R. so he has a discharge book some-where. At the out-brake of war he was likely put abord the Viola as Navy. not all the crew were fishermen. Having said that he came from a fishing village in Cornwall.  When he married my second cousin 28 March 1918 at St George's Church Gravesend stated  his occupation  R.N.,  where he lived at the time West Side Place Gravesend also nearly full of fishermen, and several like the Warner and Garland family had moved up to Humberside. I would say  that from a 30 year old AB with Orient line to Bosun with perhaps Gunnery experience is a good bet. Am hunting around family now,see what i can find

[Dazscuba]

Souterjonny thank you 

[souterjonny]

Your welcome but will keep searching among family. Spoken to his grand nephew a pal of mine and he did not know a lot about his grandfathers brother, only that he lived with him for a time in West Side Place. Was wondering where he was buried, as his wife Annie still lived West Side Place after he died.

[souterjonny]

16 hours ago, Dazscuba said:

Souterjonny thank you 

Hi, Did you notice the Orama as HMs Orama Q ship

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, souterjonny said:

Hi, Did you notice the Orama as HMs Orama Q ship

HMS Orama was an armed auxiliary cruiser, not a Q-Ship

There were however two Q-Ships that, at different times, were known as ‘Viola’ - one a Flower class Convoy Sloop (Aubretia Type) and the other a three-masted topsail schooner.

[souterjonny]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

HMS Orama was an armed auxiliary cruiser, not a Q-Ship

There were however two Q-Ships that, at different times, were known as ‘Viola’ - one a Flower class Convoy Sloop (Aubretia Type) and the other a three-masted topsail schooner.

 

[souterjonny]

1 minute ago, souterjonny said:

Thanks for the info, But was just validating that some of the crew and Ralph Toms were RNR came from the Orient liner HMS Orama nee Orama. As was a few of Orient line Ships. Even in the 50's when I have moored an Orient line ship on Tilbury Landing Stage ,Master at arms  at the gangway in Navy rig down to a cap tally with ships name

a

A

 

[souterjonny]

14 minutes ago, souterjonny said:

 

Should say and  RNR and MMR

[KizmeRD]

At the start of WW1 as much as 50% of the crews of ‘quality’ British shipping lines may already have been RNR (they were encouraged to do so).
 

It was also common practice to offer (non RNR) crew of requisitioned ships the opportunity to continue their employment by signing T.124 agreements whereby they consented to be placed under Naval operational control and become subject to the Naval Discipline Act (meaning that they had to obey lawful orders).

 

The MMR came into existence in 1916 when merchant mariners serving in naval auxiliaries were switched to T.124X agreements - meaning they now agreed to serve on any naval auxiliary for the duration of the war, not simply the ship that they were already on (Previously on voyage to voyage basis).

 

Edited 17 August , 2020 by KizmeRD