Was this the Officers' School of Instruction, Zeitoun?

[Abl412]

I hope this photograph can be of assistance in relation to ZEITOUN

[FROGSMILE]

Great to see a surviving photograph.  If you can try and get a high resolution (dpi) scan it should be possible to learn a bit more about the officers shown.  Public libraries have scanners if you don’t have one of your own and you then send the digital file to yourself by email and can upload it here.  Forum members like @PRC and @Bob Davies can often help with biographical details and I would try to assist with uniforms and insignia.  We must have a better scan posted first though.

[FROGSMILE]

This is going to be a hard one Peter as the long strip photo that you posted beneath contains a lot of Indian Army units that will be tougher to identify as you know.

Edited 12 February by FROGSMILE

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Yes very interesting

I can see no Australians there, but we didn't start sending men there, until later in the war.

[PRC]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

This is going to be a hard one Peter as the long strip photo that you posted beneath contains a lot of Indian Army units that will be tougher to identify as you know.

Apologies @FROGSMILE - just had a really good read of the earlier posts and realised that it had already been identified as not being taken at Zeitoun, so other than the course graduates that Kim is interested in there will be no overlap. I've also miscounted the names on the 1915 photograph, so need to rework that. I've hidden my post so as to stop others going off at a tangent and also to prevent future confusion. I will still post something later about the course staff but I'm now heading out the door and wouldn't have the time to do it justice.

Cheers,
Peter

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Peter,

Indeed, what a super "Save". The names are as interesting as is the Image itself.

Smithett, Shallow, and Later, are priceless!

 

 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Edited 14 February by Kimberley John Lindsay

[Bob Davies]

On 11/02/2024 at 23:37, FROGSMILE said:

Great to see a surviving photograph.  If you can try and get a high resolution (dpi) scan it should be possible to learn a bit more about the officers shown.  Public libraries have scanners if you don’t have one of your own and you then send the digital file to yourself by email and can upload it here.  Forum members like @PRC and @Bob Davies can often help with biographical details and I would try to assist with uniforms and insignia.  We must have a better scan posted first though.

Thank you FROGSMILE,

I can give you (Lt Colonel from the picture) Captain E M Colston M V O Grenadier Guards from Hart's Lists 1915.

Screenshot courtesy of and link to the page, https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100895123

 

Also from the same Hart's List 1915,

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100902899

Work has taken over so I am unable to search any more for now.

Regards, Bob.

 

 

[PRC]

Having absorbed a bit more of the original reponses I can see now that the picture in the original post believed to date to September 1917 at Zeitoun may indeed not have been taken there at all - and so incidentally calling into question the dating.

I was seeking to add confirmation that the style was consistant at Zeitoun by looking for any potential overlap between the named officers in (part of) the front row of the October 1915 dated picture and the 1917 dated picture posted by @headgardener.

The names shown in the front row of the 1915 picture are:-

Unfortunately the best close-up currently posted only includes Clarke, Pardoe, Colston and Cooke.

As Clarke is the fifth officer from the left, I’ve numbered those individual officers accordingly in the 1915 close up image both for ease of reference and to have a stab at identifying potentially the same individuals on the 1917 picture.

No new IP is claimed for any of the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

If I’ve understood the name order correctly on the 1915 photograph then :-

[5] Capt. P. Clarke. Assistant Adjutant.

[6] Major F.L. Pardoe D.S.O. Staff. There is a MiC for a Frank Lionel Pardoe. D.S.O. He was a Captain with the Machine Gun Officer, 6^th Infantry Brigade attached from 1^st Battalion, Kings Royal Rifle Corps when he landed in France on the 12^th August 1914. He reached the rank of Lieutenant Colonel while still serving overseas by the end of the war. He was recorded at Winchester when he formally applied for his medals towards the end of 1921 so may still have been serving. British Army Monthly List October 1915: Major F.L. Pardoe D.S.O. on the officer establishment of the King’s Royal Rifle Corps but performing Instructional Duties. British Army Monthly List September 1917: General Staff Officer, 2^nd Grade with seniority from the 28^th February 1917. But no obvious medal ribbon the October 1915 image. If that is him in 1917 then is he wearing a DSO ribbon? Capbadge needs higher resolution – doesn’t look like KRRC.

[7] Lieut. Colonel E.M. Colston M.V.O. There is a MiC for the Honourable Edward Murray Colston, M.V.O subsequently C.M.G and D.S.O. He was a Captain in the Grenadier Guards when he landed in France on the 12^th August 1914. He would subsequently reach the rank of Brevet Lieutenant Colonel and Temporary Brigadier General. He was included in a list received by the records office in April 1918 from the Commander in Chief Egypt Expeditionary Force of those officers under their command who were eligible for the 1914 Star. Oddly it was his father, Lord Roundhay, who applied for Edwards’ medals in February 1919, but they may just have jumped the gun. There is nothing listed for that name on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. British Army Monthly List October 1915: On the Officer establishment of the Grenadier Guards as a Major but no specific unit or attachment shown. British Army Monthly List September 1917: Brigade Commander and temporary Brigadier General, with D.S.O. 25^th May 1917.  His entry under the Grenadier Guards shows him as a Brevet Lieutenant Colonel from the 3^rd June 1917 – so the detail under the 1915 picture is either incorrect or I’ve identified the wrong man. From his Wikipedia page “Colston was promoted to major in 1915, appointed a General staff Officer (Grade 2), and sent to Egypt to establish a school of technical instruction (the Imperial School of Instruction) for troops stationed there, serving as its Commandant 1915–17. (He was referred to as 'The Hon. Edward Colston' after his father's elevation to the peerage in 1916.) Colston was promoted to Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel in 1917 and appointed to command 233rd Brigade in the rank of Temporary Brigadier-General.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Murray_Colston,_2nd_Baron_Roundway

[8] Capt. I.A.S. Cooke. Adjutant. There is a MiC for an Ian Alexander Scott Cooke, subsequently awarded the O.B.E. A Lieutenant on the Staff when he first landed in France on the 28^th September 1914, he was attached from the 2^nd Battalion, Connaught Rangers. He is shown as reaching the rank of Brevet Major, but his unit is shown as A.P.M. Alexandria. A different hand has scrawled R.A.F. against this, but there is no mention of his medals being issued by the Air Ministry. He was included in a list received by the records office in April 1918 from the Commander in Chief Egypt Expeditionary Force of those officers under their command who were eligible for the 1914 Star. Again it is his father who applies for his medals in 1920 although there is no evidence that Ian was dead. His father, the Reverend Cooke, gives his address as St. Pauls Vicarage, Brentford. British Army Monthly List October 1915:On the Officer establishment of the 4^th Battalion Connaught Rangers but attached 2^nd Battalion. British Army Monthly List September 1917: Assistant Provost Marshal, (graded as Staff Captain) with seniority from the 23^rd October 1916.
Mis-match in ranks calls this identification into question.

There can be delays in the British Army Monthly Lists being updated and things do get missed, so bet to treat them as a guide and look for supporting evidence rather than cast in stone.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

[7] Lieut. Colonel E.M. Colston M.V.O. There is a MiC for the Honourable Edward Murray Colston, M.V.O subsequently C.M.G and D.S.O. He was a Captain in the Grenadier Guards when he landed in France on the 12^th August 1914. He would subsequently reach the rank of Brevet Lieutenant Colonel and Temporary Brigadier General. He was included in a list received by the records office in April 1918 from the Commander in Chief Egypt Expeditionary Force of those officers under their command who were eligible for the 1914 Star. Oddly it was his father, Lord Roundhay, who applied for Edwards’ medals in February 1919, but they may just have jumped the gun. There is nothing listed for that name on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. British Army Monthly List October 1915: On the Officer establishment of the Grenadier Guards as a Major but no specific unit or attachment shown. British Army Monthly List September 1917: Brigade Commander and temporary Brigadier General, with D.S.O. 25^th May 1917.  His entry under the Grenadier Guards shows him as a Brevet Lieutenant Colonel from the 3^rd June 1917 – so the detail under the 1915 picture is either incorrect or I’ve identified the wrong man. From his Wikipedia page “Colston was promoted to major in 1915, appointed a General staff Officer (Grade 2), and sent to Egypt to establish a school of technical instruction (the Imperial School of Instruction) for troops stationed there, serving as its Commandant 1915–17. (He was referred to as 'The Hon. Edward Colston' after his father's elevation to the peerage in 1916.) Colston was promoted to Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel in 1917 and appointed to command 233rd Brigade in the rank of Temporary Brigadier-General.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Murray_Colston,_2nd_Baron_Roundway

A great job as always Peter, thank you.

 

No 7. Lieut Colonel E M Colston MVO.

A picture of Colston is here/my screenshot is courtesy of; https://images.grengds.com/1900s-uk/2nd-battalion-officers-pirbright-camp-1914-32112354.html

He is the Officer seated on the right. He looks like your number 7 to my eyes.

The same picture appears on a download from their Grenadier Gazette.

This is the list courtesy of that download.

Officers of the 2nd Battalion, Pirbright Camp, Summer 1914.
Back Row Left to Right: Possibly 2Lt G.R Pickersgill-Cunliffe
(KIA 14.9.14), unknown, Lt the Hon. J.N. Manners (KIA 1.9.14), 2Lt
R.H.M. Vereker (KIA 25.8.14), Possibly Lt The Hon F.E. Needham.
Middle Row Left to Right: Possibly Capt E.G.H Powell, Lt E.D.
Ridley, Possibly 2Lt P.W. Legh, 2Lt G.G.B. Nugent, Capt A.K.
MacKenzie (KIA 16.9.16), unknown, 2Lt G.E. Cecil (KIA 1.9.14),
Lt. F.W. Des Voeux (KIA 14.9.14), Lt H.H. Prince Alexander of
Battenberg, GCVO.
Front Row (Seated) Left to Right: Capt D.C.L. Stephen (KIA 8.9.14),
Major G.C. Hamilton, Lieutenant Colonel Lord Loch MVO, DSO,
Lieutenant Colonel N.A.L Corry DSO, Capt & Adjt I. McDougall
(KIA 1.9.14), Major Lord B.C. Gordon-Lennox (KIA 13.11.14), Capt
The Hon E.M. Colston MVO.
Front (on ground) Left to Right: Lt R. Wolrige-Gordon, 2Lt A.K.S.

Cunninghame (KIA 25.9.16), unknown, (same officer as at extreme
right in back row of previous photograph)

Colston is also mentioned in Ponsonbys 'The Grenadier Guards in the Great War', link here.https://archive.org/details/grenadierguardsi01pons/page/78/mode/2up?q=colston

 On September 27th 1914 Captain Colston was seized with appendicitis, and had to be sent home for an operation.

He is not mentioned again.

Zeitoun camp/training base.

An interesting image courtesy of;http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww1/zeitoun.htm

It looks to be the same frontage as @Abl412s photograph, named here as 'The Officers' Mess at the Zeitoun School of Instruction. The officers' class consisted of the subalterns of the 6th Infantry Brigade. Note the pot plants along the pathway.'

I may be off here for a few days, due to work commitments.

Regards, Bob.

 

 

Edited 13 February by Bob Davies

[PRC]

When his medals were sold in 2004/2005 the accompanying catalogue piece reads “Edward Murray Colston was born on 31 December 1880, the eldest son of 1st Baron Roundway. Educated at Eton, he entered the Grenadier Guards in 1 900. As a Lieutenant in the 2nd battalion, serving in the Boer War, he was slightly wounded near Bethlehem, 9 February 1902. He was awarded the M.V.O. 5th Class in 1908. He entered the Great War as a Major and was present throughout the retreat from Mons, also at the battles of the Marne and Aisne. He was wounded and invalided home but was subsequently sent to Egypt with the rank of Temporary Lieutenant-Colonel to form a School of Technical Instruction for the Army in Egypt, termed the Imperial School of Instruction. He was Temporary Brigadier-General commanding 233 Infantry Brigade E.E.F., 191 7-1 9. For his services in the war he was awarded the C.M.G. (1918), D.S.O. (London Gazette 26 June 1916), Order of the Nile, Order of the White Eagle and was six times mentioned in despatches. He was Lieutenant-Colonel, Grenadier Guards, 1 920-24, Colonel, 1924 and commanded the 1 31st Surrey (Territorial Infantry Brigade, 1927-31 . He retired with the Honorary rank of Brigadier-General in 1932 and died on 29 March 1944.”
https://archive.org/details/auctionofordersd00dixn_2/page/94/mode/2up?q=%22Edward+Murray+Colston%22

The Eton Digital Archive appears to have two pictures of him – one in connection with rowing and the other noted that he subsequent became Brigadier General, Grenedoer Guards G.M.G., D.S.O.

As well as the picture of him and the officers of the 2^nd Battalion at Pirbright Camp in July 1914 found by @Bob Davies, the same website has a picture taken after an inspection by the Duke of Connaught at Wimbledon Camp on the 12^th July 1920.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Picture sources

[a] Eton College Digital Archive. https://catalogue.etoncollege.com/object-pa-a-140-10-2013

[b] Eton College Digital Archive. https://catalogue.etoncollege.com/object-pa-a-120-25-2017

[c] https://images.grengds.com/1870s-1950s-group-photos/officers-inspection-field-marshal-hrh-duke-14751940.html and https://images.grengds.com/1900s-uk/2nd-battalion-officers-pirbright-camp-1914-32112354.html

Potentially other picture sources.

The National Portrait Gallery has a photograph of him. but it is not currently available online.

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp97770/edward-murray-colston-2nd-baron-roundway

Other possible pictures on the British Newspaper Archive website

Gentlewoman 2nd January 1904.

engagement is announced between Edward Murray Colston (Grenadier Guards), son of Mr. Edward Colston, M.P., of Roundway Park, Devizes, Wilts, and Blanche Gladys Duddell, ... (The marriage subsequently took place at The Guards Chapel, Wellington Barracks – Westminster Gazette 28 April 1904).

Gentlewoman 7th May 1904.

It should be noted that when checking the British Newspaper Archive that their only child, a daughter, died in tragic circumstances in 1924 which generates a large amount of newspaper articles. Understandably it doesn’t look like there are in pictures of him in connection with that sad event.

He died March 29 1944 as the 2^nd Baron Roundhay.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

When his medals were sold in 2004/2005 the accompanying catalogue piece reads “Edward Murray Colston was born on 31 December 1880, the eldest son of 1st Baron Roundway. Educated at Eton, he entered the Grenadier Guards in 1 900. As a Lieutenant in the 2nd battalion, serving in the Boer War, he was slightly wounded near Bethlehem, 9 February 1902. He was awarded the M.V.O. 5th Class in 1908. He entered the Great War as a Major and was present throughout the retreat from Mons, also at the battles of the Marne and Aisne. He was wounded and invalided home but was subsequently sent to Egypt with the rank of Temporary Lieutenant-Colonel to form a School of Technical Instruction for the Army in Egypt, termed the Imperial School of Instruction. He was Temporary Brigadier-General commanding 233 Infantry Brigade E.E.F., 191 7-1 9. For his services in the war he was awarded the C.M.G. (1918), D.S.O. (London Gazette 26 June 1916), Order of the Nile, Order of the White Eagle and was six times mentioned in despatches. He was Lieutenant-Colonel, Grenadier Guards, 1 920-24, Colonel, 1924 and commanded the 1 31st Surrey (Territorial Infantry Brigade, 1927-31 . He retired with the Honorary rank of Brigadier-General in 1932 and died on 29 March 1944.”
https://archive.org/details/auctionofordersd00dixn_2/page/94/mode/2up?q=%22Edward+Murray+Colston%22

 

The Eton Digital Archive appears to have two pictures of him – one in connection with rowing and the other noted that he subsequent became Brigadier General, Grenedoer Guards G.M.G., D.S.O.

As well as the picture of him and the officers of the 2^nd Battalion at Pirbright Camp in July 1914 found by @Bob Davies, the same website has a picture taken after an inspection by the Duke of Connaught at Wimbledon Camp on the 12^th July 1920.

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Picture sources

[a] Eton College Digital Archive. https://catalogue.etoncollege.com/object-pa-a-140-10-2013

[b] Eton College Digital Archive. https://catalogue.etoncollege.com/object-pa-a-120-25-2017

[c] https://images.grengds.com/1870s-1950s-group-photos/officers-inspection-field-marshal-hrh-duke-14751940.html and https://images.grengds.com/1900s-uk/2nd-battalion-officers-pirbright-camp-1914-32112354.html

Potentially other picture sources.

The National Portrait Gallery has a photograph of him. but it is not currently available online.

 

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp97770/edward-murray-colston-2nd-baron-roundway

 

Other possible pictures on the British Newspaper Archive website

 

Gentlewoman 2nd January 1904.

 

engagement is announced between Edward Murray Colston (Grenadier Guards), son of Mr. Edward Colston, M.P., of Roundway Park, Devizes, Wilts, and Blanche Gladys Duddell, ... (The marriage subsequently took place at The Guards Chapel, Wellington Barracks – Westminster Gazette 28 April 1904).

 

Gentlewoman 7th May 1904.

 

It should be noted that when checking the British Newspaper Archive that their only child, a daughter, died in tragic circumstances in 1924 which generates a large amount of newspaper articles. Understandably it doesn’t look like there are in pictures of him in connection with that sad event.

 

He died March 29 1944 as the 2^nd Baron Roundhay.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Another excellent match with all those photos as same man Peter 👍

Edited 14 February by FROGSMILE