Is someone able to read Remarks please

[CassieRae]

I cannot read the remarks in this medal card, and wondered if better eyes and knowledge on this forum could please? Also can you tell me what it all means?

[headgardener]

The medals were returned (“retd.”) because they had not been ‘disposed of’ (delivered to the recipient - possibly because there was no forwarding address, the recipient didn’t want them, the recipient was dead, etc). The rest is just administrative notations for internal reference at the Army Medal Office.

p.s. the medals in question were the BW&VM, and they were returned to the AMO in March 1923

[TEW]

BWM & VM returned (undisposed of) Certified Receipt Voucher W/5/B dated 6/3/23.

 

Unusual comment I think, no mention of the King's Regulation it was returned under. It basically means the medals sent out were returned to the medal office.

 

TEW

[headgardener]

7 minutes ago, TEW said:

Unusual comment I think, no mention of the King's Regulation it was returned under.

 

True, I wonder if by 1923 the AMO clerks were just a bit bored with having to make a note of the ‘usual’ reason (KR 1792, or whatever it was). Not sure I ever remember seeing another KR cited on the MIC of returned medals.

[CassieRae]

Many thanks for the help over this. The soldier died in 1919 so they were a tad late! ;-((  He left for Australia 1913 and fought from there.Sgt Herbert Painton, LMG Squadron

Sgt Herbert Painton, LMG Squadron, Australia

Edited 10 July , 2020 by CasseRae

[TEW]

Not near computer at present so have to rely on unreliable memory.

 

Wasn't there a KR1923 for returned medals.

 

Looking for info I found another forum post that has an identical remark, I almost thought it was the same card. Written by same clerk I think.

TEW

 

 

[butler]

The medal index card is to a Pte Herbert Painton who served in the British Army and whose overseas service was with the Machine Gun Corps. I do not think the card relates to your man if he was serving as a Sergeant in the AIF

[CassieRae]

Thanks Butler,

His Australian Military Forces Attestation paper  stamped at the top say: 1st L.H. Bgd M-ch (Machine?) Gun Section  and down side 11th. Reinfs. 2nd Light Horse.

[CassieRae]

[butler]

As an Australian soldier he would not have a medal index card in the National Archives. I don't know how to go about researching an Australian. You would do best to start another topic stating the info you have and outlining what sort of info you are after

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I think if you read the Australian service record through to the end, it will have a page with medal entitlement and distribution.

They usually do.

 

Edit:

Yes

On Page 78 (of 79)!

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8004927

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[WhiteStarLine]

Now we have established that the OP quoted the wrong soldier in post #1 (which is why we always ask for full details from the start, given to us in post #5), Australian records are very comprehensive and free.  Here is the first result from the AIF Search Engine at the University of New South Wales.

 

Herbert PAINTON

 

Regimental number	1487
Place of birth	Longworth, Berkshire, England
School	Longworth British School, England
Age on arrival in Australia	18.4
Religion	Church of England
Occupation	Carpenter
Marital status	Single
Age at embarkation	20
Height	5' 7.5"
Weight	132 lbs
Next of kin	Mother, Mrs Kaziah Painton, Longworth near Farrington, England
Previous military service	Nil.
Enlistment date	1 September 1915
Date of enlistment from Nominal Roll	31 August 1915
Place of enlistment	Brisbane, Queensland
Rank on enlistment	Private
Unit name	2nd Light Horse Regiment, 11th Reinforcement
AWM Embarkation Roll number	10/7/3
Embarkation details	Unit embarked from Sydney, New South Wales, on board HMAT A47 Mashobra on 4 October 1915
Rank from Nominal Roll	Private
Unit from Nominal Roll	1st Light Horse Brigade Machine Gun Squadron
Other details from Roll of Honour Circular	"He was cheerful and of bright disposition and a great favourite with the men he served with and according to a letter received by me from an officer, 'nothing could damp his cheerfulness and wit and more than once had led his men into battle.' Had horse killed under him at 'Romani' and was recommended for medal, or so his letter said. Up til now I have not received any of his effects." [Mother: R. Painter of Longworth, England.]
Fate	Returned to Australia 26 January 1919
Date of death	7 March 1919
Age at death	23.8
Place of burial	Independent Cemetery, Rookwood, Sydney
Panel number, Roll of Honour,   Australian War Memorial	180
Miscellaneous information from   cemetery records	Son of Mrs K PAINTON. Native of Maryborough, QueenslandPlaque in Garden of Remembrance, NSW.
Other details	War service: Egypt, Palestine. Taken on strength of 2nd Australian Light Horse Regiment, Heliopolis, 9 January 1916. To Front, 14 January 1916. Admitted to No 1 Australian Dermatological Hospital, Cairo, 10 February 1916 (venereal disease: gonorrhoea); discharged and marched into Overseas Base, 16 March 1916; total period of treatment for venereal disease: 36 days. Taken on strength of 1st Australian Light Horse Regiment, Heliopolis, 17 March 1916. Admitted to No 1 Australian Dermatological Hospital, Cairo, 20 March 1916 (venereal disease: gonorrhoea); discharged, 12 April 1916; total period of treatment for venereal disease: 24 days. Taken on strength of 2nd Australian Light Horse Regiment from Details, 29 April 1916. Transferred to Machine Gun Company, Romani, 21 July 1916; taken on strength of 1st Machine Gun Squadron, Romani, 22 July 1917. Detached to School of Instruction, Zeitoun, 3 September 1916; rejoined unit, 24 September 1916. Qualified as 1st Class Machine Gunner, School of Instruction, Zeitoun, 25 October 1916. Promoted Lance Corporal, El Arish, 15 January 1917. Admitted to 1st Australian Light Horse Field Ambulance, 21 February 1917 (influenza); discharged and rejoined unit, 26 February 1917. Admitted to 1st Australian Light Horse Field Ambulance, 26 May 1917; discharged and rejoined unit, 28 May 1917. Promoted Temporary Corporal, 1 July 1917. Found guilty, 8 July 1917, of failing to comply with an order: award, admonished. Promoted Corporal, 16 September 1917. Promoted Temporary Sergeant, 17 September 1917. Reverts to the rank of Corporal, Richon, 25 October 1917. Promoted Temporary Sergeant, 18 December 1917. Promoted Sergeant, 10 March 1918. Transferred to Machine Gun Training Squadron, 8 April 1918; taken on strength of Machine Gun Training Squadron, Moascar, 10 April 1918. Detached to School of Instruction, Moascar, 27 April 1918; rejoined unit, 30 April 1918. Detached to School of Instruction, Moascar, 26 May 1918; rejoined unit, 29 June 1918. Taken on strength of 1st Machine Gun Squadron, 29 August 1918. Sick to hospital, 21 October 1918; admitted to No 31 General Hospital, Cairo, 21 October 1918 (malaria); discharged and marched into Machine Gun Training Squadron, Moascar, 31 October 1918. Marched out of Machine Gun Training Squadron, 17 November 1918; rejoined unit, 18 November 1918. Sick to hospital, 18 November 1918; admitted to No 14 Australian General Hospital, Port Said, 27 November 1918. Commenced return to Australia on board HT 'Demosthenes', 26 January 1919; admitted to Ship's Hospital, 22 February 1919 (malaria); admitted to No 4 Australian General Hospital, Randwick, 6 March 1919; died of acute malaria and acute nephritis, Randwick, 7 March 1919. Medals: 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal
Sources	NAA: B2455, PAINTON Herbert

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 hours ago, CasseRae said:

Thanks Butler,

His Australian Military Forces Attestation paper  stamped at the top say: 1st L.H. Bgd M-ch (Machine?) Gun Section  and down side 11th. Reinfs. 2nd Light Horse.

Two different men.

Just a coincidence that they the same name and were in the machine gun business.

The British soldier was a Private with no entitlement to a Star.

The Australian was a Sergeant entitled to the 14-15 Star.

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Here's a list of every Herbert Painton born in England & Wales from 1875 to 1901.

 

Surname	First name(s)		District	Vol	Page
Births Jun 1881   (>99%)
PAINTON	Herbert		Shoreditch	1c	80
Births Sep 1895   (>99%)
Painton	Herbert		Faringdon	2c	282
Births Dec 1898   (>99%)
PAINTON	Herbert		W. Ham	4a	424
Births Mar 1899   (>99%)
Painton	Herbert William		Windsor	2c	423

 

 

And all the deaths from 1881 to 1983.

 

Surname	First name(s)	Age	District	Vol	Page
Deaths Sep 1881   (>99%)
Painton	Herbert	0	Shoreditch	1c	99
Deaths Dec 1899   (>99%)
Painton	Herbert William	0	Windsor	2c	298

 

Surname	First name(s)	Age	District	Vol	Page
Deaths Dec 1964   (>99%)
PAINTON	HERBERT	66	SOUTHEND	4A	890

 

I suggest that the MIC in the original post belongs to the man born West Ham 1898 and died Southend 1968.

The man born in Faringdon is our ANZAC who died in Australia in 1919.

Edited 11 July , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[CassieRae]

Oh dear! That is my fear all the work I have done so far could be incorrect!  Thank you so much Dai for saving my face!  Herbert Painton was born in August 1895 in Longworth, Berkshire (Oxfordshire) and baptised there on August 25th 1895 the son of Bartholomew Painton, Carpenter and his wife Kezia Rivers. So the one born Faringdon is correct.  Thank you for accessing his record in Australian Archive - if only ours where free!  I have now been through all his service records and pretty obviously we now have the correct man.

 

Did he go to Australia to live and then joined the Army would you say, or was he sent there? PLEASE ignore this as I now see he enlisted in Brisbane.

 

Thank you for all your help, Butler, WhiteStarLiner and Dai Bach.

 

Edited 11 July , 2020 by CasseRae

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

That's OK CasseRae,

So, are you researching the West Ham man in some detail?

There are some more leads you could follow:

He's in the 1939 Register living at Woodlands, Arterial Road with his wife Winifred (nee Stuart)  whom he married in 1925 and I assume her mother.

His date of birth was given as November 16th 1898.

It looks as though Winifred remarried a Benjamin Shepherd in 1970.

[Guest]

I can confirm that No. 1487 Sgt Herbert Painton's medals, Memorial Plaque & Commemorative Scroll (see images below) were eventually received by his family after he died in 1919. After an initial mix-up with the postal address they were sent to his mother in England and then passed to Herbert's brother (my grandfather) in Australia.