Portrait of Sinclair Sutherland 1/7th Argyll & Sutherland Highl.

[Aurel Sercu]

This is a question on behalf of an acquaintance, who has been doing research on :

Sinclair Sutherland, 326534, died 4 September 1917, buried in Bard Cottage Cem. IV. F. 14 (between Ypres and Boezinge, Belgium).

Born 1895, Govan, Lanarkshire ; residence Glasgow.

I have already offered help regarding where and in what circumstances Sinclair Sutherland died (in the Bard Cottage Cem. area). But if there is one thing my acquaintance would really want to obtain, it is a photo (portrait) of the soldier he has been doing research on for quite a while.

 

However, I 'warned' him : even asking on the GWF does not guarantee a result at all. Finding a portrait may be the needle in the haystack.

Yet, I want to give it a try here.

And maybe : where should I start if we want to continue ?

 

Thanks.

Aurel

[Grantp08]

Have they had a look at the Roll of Honour in the Glasgow Evening Times?

 

A lot of the men from the city who died had their picture in it. It's where I found a portrait of my great uncle. The Mitchell Library in Glasgow have original copies and microfiche.

 

Edit. OK. Just checked and he is there and has a portrait. Page 2 of the 10th October 1917 edition of the newspaper. If you contact the library they will be able to get a copy. 

Edited 3 July , 2020 by Grantp08

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Grantp08, that's great.

 

But can you please guide me ? I have tried to find the paper and page online for half an hour, but all efforts in vain... Is the portrait visible ? And where do I start ? Is it possible to give a link?  I have tried Glasgow Evening Times, and also Mitchell Library Glasgow etc. but to no avail so far. Or maybe I need a subscription?

Sorry to bother you with my clumsiness...

 

Aurel

EDIT - I think I understand. Is this where you found that a portrait must be available in the Glasgow Evening Times 10 Oct. 1917, p. 5, in this mention in the Roll of Honour (scroll down to p. 47)

https://www.glasgowfamilyhistory.org.uk/Documents/ETRollofHonourSeptoDec1917.pdf

Edited 4 July , 2020 by Aurel Sercu
addition

[Ron Abbott]

Check Ancestry.  There is somebody on there who has apparently indexed Sinclair Sutherland but has done so privately rather than publicly (member name 'PamelaNZ').

 

Not sure whether this link will work or not.........

 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/pt/RequestTreeAccess.aspx?tid=9632588&pid=  

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Ron. I think I am getting nearer. Right now I have no Ancestry subscription (yet), but I can surely consider that.

 

Aurel

[Grantp08]

Hi Aurel

 

Sorry. I should have been clearer but was typing on my phone. 

 

The Glasgow Evening Times published small obituary notices of local men killed at the time of the war. The details were provided by the families and often included a portrait. 

 

A few years ago, the staff at the Mitchell Library collated a list of all the the men featured and helpfully added if they included a picture. That is the list you have found. 

 

To obtain a copy of the picture you need to access the archives. They have bound copies of the original newspapers printed in that era. They are quite fragile now and I'm not even sure if the public can handle them anymore. The archiveists should be able to get a picture for you though if you email them. 

 

Failing that, I work very close by and would be able to get a picture for you one lunchtime....once normality returns! 

 

I've attached below my Great Uncles notice to show you what they look like. 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Thank you, Grantp08 !

That was clear and very helpful.

I will inform my acquaintance - the man in search of the portrait of Sinclair Sutherland - and advise him to contact the Mitchell Library. I'll keep you posted.

It certainly makes so much difference to see a portrait of the man one is doing research on, and I know from personal experience.

 

Thanks again. And let's hope that normality soon returns. Though maybe the new normality will not be the same as the old normality. And will be Normality 2.0 ... For a long time ...

 

Aurel

Edited 4 July , 2020 by Aurel Sercu
typos

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Aurel,
                  Was there a medical station near Bard Cottage in September 1917. There seems to have been about four 7th Argyll and Sutherland Highlander soldiers killed on that day. Do you know what they were doing in the area, I do not think they were in the front line at this time? 
           Many thanks,
                  Stewart

[Aurel Sercu]

Hi Stewart,

7th Argyll & Sutherland were 154th Brigade, 51st Highland Division. Could you confirm that this is correct ?

And ... what date in September 1917 ? (Or : beginning, middle or end ?) Maybe 20 September ?

If 20 September : the Bn started off just northeast of the centre of Langemark, heading direction north of Poelkapelle. So at the time they were approx. 7 km (4 1/2 miles) away from the Bard Cottage area.

Were they near the frontline ? Probably not ... But maybe they were wounded near the frontline, taken to the Bard Cottage area, and died  there ? Or : victims of German shelling in the Bard Cottage area ?

There was a medical station nearby. The track next to Bard Cottage cemetery leads to Rivoli Farm. Halfway the track there was Lodi Farm. I'm sure there was a medical station at Lodi Farm (which was not rebuilt post war ; well, there was one in 1915, for the walking wounded coming from the east bank battle field SE of Boezinge).

I hope this helps a bit ...

Aurel

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Aurel,
                  Sorry, I should have been more clear with my post. Pte Sinclair and 2 or 3 other men from the 7th Battalion, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders died on the 4th of September 1917. The was dairy says that the battalion was at a camp called Murat. On the 3rd of September men were wounded by a couple of German shells.
        Thank you for the information about the medical station at Lodi Farm, that seems a very likely place that the wounded would have been treated.
     Do you happen to know what Murat Camp was used for or what it would have looked like, was it tents, huts or entrenched? With it being so close to the front line, I wonder if it was a holding camps for reserves who could rapidly move to the front line, as opposed to a rest and training camp. But that is all just guess work at this point. I am not finding much written about the camp.
              Thanks for your time.
                         Stewart

[Aurel Sercu]

Hello Stewart,

Murat Camp ... I sure remember seeing and reading the name Murat Camp, but I con't remember where.

Anyway, Murat Farm was approx. 0.6 (1/3 mile) south of (present) Bard Cottage Cem, Rivoli Fm, Lodi Fm. And near Kleber Fm. (Lodi Fm was not rebuilt after the war, the other farms were. See below what my satellite photographed before it grew dark here.

I have never seen any war time photos of Murat Fm ... And I'm afraid I have no other information on what the camp was like ...

Aurel

P.S. Just in case Google reads this ... The satellite was not really mine ... :-)

 

[WhiteStarLine]

6 hours ago, Aurel Sercu said:

.. I sure remember seeing and reading the name Murat Camp, but I con't remember where.

Murat Camp is at the extreme right of the aerial.  Click to enlarge and view the distinctive huts which exactly match the trench map.  Images courtesy WFA / IWM

[david murdoch]

On 19/12/2021 at 18:29, gnr.ktrha said:

Hello Aurel,
                  Was there a medical station near Bard Cottage in September 1917. There seems to have been about four 7th Argyll and Sutherland Highlander soldiers killed on that day. Do you know what they were doing in the area, I do not think they were in the front line at this time? 
           Many thanks,
                  Stewart

CWGC shows there are three 7th A&SH casualties at Bard Cottage Cemetery for 3rd September. Those presumably the three  ORs killed by shellfire on that day per the war diary.  There are a further four with  date of death  on 4th September including Sinclair Sutherland. The battalion moved off from Murat on the morning of 4th but had two ORs killed and 17 wounded.  So possibly a couple of those  wounded on 3rd died of wounds. War diary shows what they were doing at this time. Can look at those seven and see who was listed killed in action and who died of wounds.

IV. F. 17.

[david murdoch]

Edward Easton 276360 Killed in Action on 3rd

Donald McRae S/17508  Killed in Action on 3rd

Anthony McHale 279017 Killed in Action on 3rd

Alexander McLachlan 202283 Died of Wounds on 4th

George Robertson 201975 Died of Wounds on 4th

Sinclair Sutherland 326534 Killed in Action on 4th 

George Whyte S/19301 Died of wounds on 4th

From this can see the lads killed outright by the two shells on the 3rd. A couple of the 4th's casualties could have been wounded the previous day, but Sinclair Sutherland appears to have been one of the two killed on 4th, and presumably in that vicinity. As the battalion were moving off, casualties later and on the 5th are buried elsewhere.

[gnr.ktrha]

Hi Aurel, Whitestarline and David,
                                                      Thank you all for your assistance and taking the time to dig out information for me, it is very good of you all.
      It seems that even though the camp was just behind the front line in September 1917, it was being used as a training facility, according to the war diary. That is a bit of a surprise as I had assumed wrongly that it would be a reserve holding camp for the front line. It is great to see the map and aerial photograph of the camp, seems that they had some huts there by 1918.
      The other surprise for me is that Murat Camp was to the north of Bard Cottage, I had expected it to be close to Murat Farm, which was to the south of Bard Cottage. 
       It has all been excellent information, thank you for taking the time to post it all.
                             Many thanks,
                                    Stewart
       

[Aurel Sercu]

Stewart,

You wrote :

      The other surprise for me is that Murat Camp was to the north of Bard Cottage, I had expected it to be close to Murat Farm, which was to the south of Bard Cottage. 

Imagine my surprise (and embarrasment) when I saw where Murat Camp was ! It is even marked on my paper map op the area, which I used every day ! But  I had not expected Murat Camp tot be 1 kilometer north of Murat Farm, with a handful of farms in between !

For those who know the area : it is not on the satellite view I posted yesterday. Except the southern tip of the camp, which is near the northern edge. It is where now the "Waterzuiveringstation" ('waterpurification station') is. I pass there twice a day ! (Should someone want me to take a photo ... But there is nothing idyllic or pastoral there ...)

Aurel

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

David (and others)

I see I took this photo in Bard Cottage Cemetery  in June 2020. From left to right : Sutherland, McLachlan, Robertson, Whyte.

It must have been because someone (GWF member ?) asked me to ...

Aurel

[gnr.ktrha]

Aurel,
         What a great photograph of their graves. I wonder if they knew each other? They might have been in the same platoon or company together. I have passed Bard Cottage cemetery many times, but have never visited it yet. It is next to a cycle route I like to take when I'm in Ieper, will need to stop by next time I'm in the area.
            Many thanks once again,
                             Stewart 

[roughdiamond]

I have a book that's the history of 1/7th A&SH, there are quite a few photos of Officers and men in it, I'll see if he's one of them.

 

Edited to add: Sorry, no photo.

 

Sam

Edited 22 December , 2021 by roughdiamond