Soldier's Rifle/Equipment & Hospital Admission Procedure

[exXIX]

On 08/05/2021 at 18:45, Muerrisch said:

 

A lot of words, no evidence, and patronising.

 

The "I was in the army so I know what happened 110 years ago" card is wearisome.

 

Noting that this is Frogsmile's last attempt at explaining, this seems a good moment to draw a line under my contributions. 

 

 

 

I think the words I was looking for is 'if it sounds reasonable and or logical' then in all probability it may contain a grain of truth. As with most things, 'learned' experience is usually based in some way around anecdotal evidence, that 'what is a reality today, probably evolved from arrangements and 'best practice' that was modified over the following decades. To dismiss this valid angle seems quite absurd, so whilst my contribution may be 'tiresome' it still has validity. We are talking about situations, some over 100 years ago, which may only have 'anecdotal' as a pose to 'written' evidence. With respect I find your attitude quite dismissive and closed minded...but however, you are entitled to your opinion and perhaps you have more experience than I in this sphere, so I will not take offence at your comments, you might try being less pedantic and dismissive in your wording, as I have found your previous posts to be quite informative...

[mike st]

I would have thought that when a wounded man needed to be removed from the field to a RAP by stretcher, the bearers would have lightened their load as much as possible and left his arms ammunition, pack etc where he fell.

[FROGSMILE]

22 hours ago, mike st said:

I would have thought that when a wounded man needed to be removed from the field to a RAP by stretcher, the bearers would have lightened their load as much as possible and left his arms ammunition, pack etc where he fell.

It’s interesting aspect, Mike.  I’ve learned from an excellent thesis studying the experiences of bearers that pre war the rigid drill taught was that each man was to be carried by a party of 6-bearers!  The field ambulance bearer section was actually established on that premise and so relatively well manned.  What’s striking, I thought, was that four bearers were to carry the stretcher (one per corner), one bearer was to carry the wounded soldier’s ‘arms and equipment’, and the final bearer was to command the movement, looking forward for the best route to take and also arrange for change around of bearers on the actual stretcher.  Unsurprisingly, in 1914, field ambulances were often overtaken by withdrawing troops and casualties among the bearer sections quickly made such a carrying arrangement impossible.  As a result far more practical and flexible arrangements were made and I think you’re likely correct that arms were sometimes abandoned on those occasions when they could not be dealt with in the way described in this thread.

Edited 6 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Madmeg]

First Aid to the Injured 1917 revision, St John Ambulance Association.

"Stretcher Exercises

Originally drawn up by Sir John Furley, revised in 1917 to accord with the drills adopted by the Royal Army Medical Corps.(my bold)

Exercise No 1

For Four Bearers"

No 3 should be the strongest, no 4 gives the orders. 1 and 3 carry (feet and head respectively), 2 walks beside stretcher, 4 walks next to front of stretcher (usually feet first so usually by 1)

Its a lovely organised drill, I imagine in the wet, muddy, shell shot, under fire field things may have proceeded somewhat differently. As it is St john manual there is no mention of looking after the patient's rifle or other accoutrements.

A SAR stretcher team today would be at least six carrying with a support party of- lots.

Exercise No 2 is for three (presumably strong) bearers. 2 gives the orders.

"Exercise No 3 for use in mines and narrow cuttings where only two men can be engaged."

Followed by- to load an ambulance, to unload an ambulance, to cross a ditch, to cross a wall, lifting into bed and carrying upstairs.

These drills are still in use in the 1946 NZ Civil Defence Manual and the 1965 edition of the St John First Aid Manual, although the illustrations have been updated :-D

Edited 6 September , 2021 by Madmeg

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

First Aid to the Injured 1917 revision, St John Ambulance Association.

"Stretcher Exercises

Originally drawn up by Sir John Furley, revised in 1917 to accord with the drills adopted by the Royal Army Medical Corps.(my bold)

Exercise No 1

For Four Bearers"

No 3 should be the strongest, no 4 gives the orders. 1 and 3 carry (feet and head respectively), 2 walks beside stretcher, 4 walks next to front of stretcher (usually feet first so usually by 1)

Its a lovely organised drill, I imagine in the wet, muddy, shell shot, under fire field things may have proceeded somewhat differently. As it is St john manual there is no mention of looking after the patient's rifle or other accoutrements.

A SAR stretcher team today would be at least six carrying with a support party of- lots.

Exercise No 2 is for three (presumably strong) bearers. 2 gives the orders.

"Exercise No 3 for use in mines and narrow cuttings where only two men can be engaged."

Followed by- to load an ambulance, to unload an ambulance, to cross a ditch, to cross a wall, lifting into bed and carrying upstairs.

These drills are still in use in the 1946 NZ Civil Defence Manual and the 1965 edition of the St John First Aid Manual, although the illustrations have been updated :-D

That all fits entirely with the thesis described and gives excellent detail.  It’s easy to understand from the description how difficult the carriage of arms and equipment had become.

Edited 6 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[helpjpl]

 

Nobody has mentioned battalion stretcher bearers. With so few of them it's difficult to see how or, more importantly, why a wounded soldier's rifle would be taken to the RAP with him.

According to another British Pathe clip, the attached shows the Manchester Regiment in training (in good conditions). The 'wounded' soldier is put on a stretcher, manned by 2 men, and another soldier picks up his kit and rifle. Unfortunately, we don't see how far the kit and rifle accompanies the stretcher.

JP

 

[Madmeg]

Nice film. It basically shows the four man drill as described in the St John Manual ( with added rifle)

Watching them lift made me wince- the drill obviously did not include teaching them how to use their knees not their backs poor lads! The strap is in use with St John, once 1 and 3 had the weight it was the job of 2 and 4 to adjust the strap. Using a strap for stretcher carrying makes a huge difference spreading the weight from the arms to the shoulders.

The drill for a two man carry was obviously put together by someone who had never had to carry a stretcher for real and by the looks of it was trained (as I was suspecting) on nice easy ground, probably over short distances as well. The photos all show the reality with four men actually carrying in all the photos shown above. 

I take my hats off to all those stretcher bearers, tough , tough fellas.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, helpjpl said:

 

Nobody has mentioned battalion stretcher bearers. 
JP

On the contrary JP, they are explicitly mentioned in my first post of 8th May (as part of explaining the entire collection and evacuation process).

FS

Edited 6 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[helpjpl]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

On the contrary JP, they are explicitly mentioned in my first post of 8th May (as part of an explaining the entire collection and evacuation process).

FS

Humble apologies. I had re-read the entire thread earlier today and can't explain how your post of 08 May slipped my mind. Clearly time to take a break from the GWF for a week or two.

JP

Edited 6 September , 2021 by helpjpl
typo

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

Humble apologies. I had re-read the entire thread earlier today and can't explain how your post of 08 May slipped my mind. Clearly time to take a break from the GWF for a week or two.

JP

Not at all JP, I totally understand why you missed it.  The unit stretcher bearers are covered in greater detail in this thread here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/287413-roles-in-the-ramc/page/2/

 

Edited 6 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mike st]

So, One man was told off to collect arms and equipment. Clearly there was no need for him to carry it to the RAP but return it to stores.

In battle, the SBs could leave the equipment behind to be collected later if possible by salvage companies.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, mike st said:

So, One man was told off to collect arms and equipment. Clearly there was no need for him to carry it to the RAP but return it to stores.

In battle, the SBs could leave the equipment behind to be collected later if possible by salvage companies.

Yes, I think that’s true once the salvage companies were established, but a lot of these peripheral aspects of industrial scale warfare evolved over the first 3-years of the war, with many of the counter measures being developed in 1916.  From every account that I’ve read the most consistently marked feature of the first two years was a sense of relative chaos, as well intended actions mapped out pre war were overtaken by events when it came down to the reality on the ground.  This included the arrangements for dealing with casualties and their personal equipment.

Edited 6 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I have recently finished reading Tilsley's Other Ranks in which I have found a passage which may be relevant to this thread.

The main character, Bradshaw, had thrown away his rifle and most of his equipment when his unit was withdrawing from an attempt to capture Ginchy on 9 September 1916 (page 37ff. of my 2019 edition) – in which engagement, as an aside, my own grandfather, whose battalion was in the same Brigade as Bradshaw’s battalion, was seriously wounded.

Bradshaw and a few others regained their own communication trench the following morning. Bradshaw then realised that he was likely to be in dire trouble for parting with his rifle and equipment, so he decided that he must take steps to find replacements. When dark once against fell, he climbed out of the trench (from which they had been able to watch the activity at the nearby dressing station during the day), and "found a heap of equipment and stack of rifles, discarded by those entering the aid post" (page 58). He selected “the best set of webbing he could find in the darkness”, presumably including a rifle, and rejoined the rest of the unit.

So it is clear that in this instance, at least, weapons and equipment were being piled outside the dressing station, and were not being kept with their owners.

The situation described by Tilsley is to be distinguished from that described by John Lucy in With a Machine Gun to Cambrai (referred to above), because, even though Bradshaw and his group had been involved in a retreat, it was a withdrawal from a failed attack rather than a more general retreat of the entire army, and once they had regained their own trench they were comparatively safe; therefore it seems reasonable to assume that what was happening at the dressing station was in accordance with “normal” procedure, rather than potentially all rules being cast aside under the pressure of adverse circumstances,

Tilsley does not, of course, go on to say what happened to the heap of weapons and equipment next, i.e. as to whether the RAMC organized transport for them to be taken back to the CCS before they were eventually returned to Ordnance, or whether the unit themselves arranged for their collection and return to Ordnance.

On 06/09/2021 at 23:17, mike st said:

In battle, the SBs could leave the equipment behind to be collected later if possible by salvage companies.

On the question of salvage companies, there is a directive issued by the DAQMG of the 55th Division on 23 June 1916 regarding the setting up of the 55^th Division’s Salvage Company, which is filed in the 55^th Division’s A & Q WD, page 26 of WO 95/2908/3-1. Although the directive is not directly relevant to this thread (as it is dealing exclusively with abandoned equipment), it is interesting to note the emphasis placed on the desirability of getting abandoned ordnance etc. for which the unit had a need (especially during operations) back into use as quickly as possible by means of the salvage company co-operating directly with the DADOS.

It will be noted that the directive does not condone equipment being routinely abandoned by either injured men or SBs, though by implication it recognizes that this was sometimes going to happen in practice “owing to the exigencies of the service, especially actual operations in the Field”.

Incidentally Tilsley’s Bradshaw (whose battalion, the 1/4^th LNL, was in the 55^th Division) was assigned to the Divisional Salvage Company at one point (page 68 ff.).

[TEW]

There's bound to be variations and unusual scenarios. Boulogne Base DDMS sent out two memos to all hospitals and perhaps other medical units that soldiers are arriving at hospital with rifles.

Second, more alarming. Officers were boarding hospital ships bound for UK and were taking rifles with them.

TEW