RANK ON MEDALS

[Liz Hall]

Please forgive my ignorance but would my grandfather's medals be stamped WOII or CSM or just Serjeant?

 

What is the difference between Rank and Appointment.

 

Thanks.

Liz

 

 

 

 

[Jim Strawbridge]

His British Army Medal Index Card should give an indicator.

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-medal-index-cards-1914-1920/

 

 

 

[Coldstreamer]

but check the medal roll as well as they do differ ( as I discovered only the other day)

[Keith_history_buff]

What medals did he receive, Liz? I am wondering if he has more than a British War Medal & Victory Medal. Other medals are likely to have different ranks, possibly different regimental numbers too.

[Liz Hall]

Thanks all.

 

14-15 Star card shows Serjeant 296 (Demobilized) 1/5 Loyal North Lancs

Combined medal card 296, 240016 and 57756/5//7 (much crossing out)

Rank shown as WOII with blue crosses alongside.

Medal rolls indicate he also served with 4/5 Battalion (but no soldiers documents) 

 

Hs TFEM card of 1919 shows 240016 with rank CSM, and the clasp issued in 1929 with number 3848465 WOII.

 

He came back from Ireland in 1922 (2nd Batt) with the seven digit number, and was back in the TA two weeks later, serving until 1935, with the same number.

 

So as a supplementary question as to what would be on his medals, when did the TA reform after the war.  Did the commitment to serve end with the Armistice?  I notice on some enlistment papers it says 'Duration of War'.

 

Any suggestions much appreciated.

LIZ

 

 

[Matlock1418]

On 23/06/2020 at 17:19, Liz Hall said:

What is the difference between Rank and Appointment.

There are many much more knowledgeable pals on this forum but they have not yet arrived, so ... Jumping in where wiser fools would probably fear to tread!

 

Simply put I think - For your example:

Rank = Rank [position in the hierarchy of the Army] = WOII  = Warrant Officer (Second Class)

and

Appointment = their 'job'/role = CSM = Company Serjeant Major

 

Whereas:

A WOl (First Class) likely to be = RSM = Regimental Sergeant Major

Etc.

 

For Officers it might have been Captain and Adjutant

[or Captain and Brigade Major - I would like that explained more! - probably originally considered a Major's role, but often probably only a senior Captain available to fill it - with or without such pay and/or allowances = ???]

 

As for Privates who held the appointment of Lance Corporal - I leave for more qualified others to explain! [if you wish!]

 

As for the badges they wore - Likewise I leave for more qualified others to explain!

 

You haven't asked about Acting and/or Paid/unpaid - but I expect we may well get those answered too [probably plenty of acting and un-paid!]

 

I have put it simply.

 

I shall now stand back .... and await ... probably for my come-uppance/education! ;-/

:-) M

[Liz Hall]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Simply put I think - For your example:

Rank = Rank [position in the hierarchy of the Army] = WOII  = Warrant Officer (Second Class)

and

Appointment = their 'job'/role = CSM = Company Serjeant Major

 

Simple when it's explained!

 

Many thanks.

LIZ

[Matlock1418]

37 minutes ago, Liz Hall said:

Rank shown as WOII with blue crosses alongside.

If these are crosses with dots I believe this would normally be what was inscribed on the medal(s) 

But from my limited experience you can't, even with a medal roll, be absolutely sure what went on the medal(s) - unless you have the medals!

Also as per post #4 - the timing of entitlement to various medals may vary according to circumstances and introduce various inscriptions

:-) M

[kenf48]

53 minutes ago, Liz Hall said:

So as a supplementary question as to what would be on his medals, when did the TA reform after the war.  Did the commitment to serve end with the Armistice?  I notice on some enlistment papers it says 'Duration of War'.

 

I've not looked at his medal cards as we don't know who he is, but the 1/5 LNL was a battalion of the Territorial Force, which was formed in 1908.  The 1/5, up until the formation of the second line or reserve units early in the war was simply the 5th Battalion.  His number of 296 suggests he was an original member of the Battalion on formation.  TF terms of service were for a four year engagement (leaving aside the wartime medal qualifications) he would have re-engaged in 1912 and therefore been serving when war was declared in 1914.  Strictly speaking his war medals should show '296' and the highest rank he achieved providing it was in a theatre of war.

 

The 14-15 Star probably shows his rank when he entered the theatre of war, i.e. Serjeant, this medal was approved in November 1918

 

As previously posted, a slip that accompanied the 'war medals', i.e. the BWM and VM (approved 1919) read:-

 

'To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank.'

 

So the rank shown on those medals would be that noted by the blue asterisk,on the card i.e. WOII

An appointment was just that, an appointment which could be removed at any time,e.g. on a transfer; a rank was substantive and held by the individual.

 

He re-engaged in 1916, and the whole Territorial Force was renumbered in March 1917 and each soldier given a six digit number. The series for the 5th LNL began at 240001

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

so once again it seems the numbers were allocated either on seniority or rank.  This was his number when he qualified for the TFEM.

 

In 1920 all soldiers were renumbered with a personal seven digit number which they retained throughout their service.  If he went to Ireland with the 2nd Battalion it seems he re-enlisted on a short term engagement of either one two or three years.  A bounty was paid commensurate with the length of time they signed up for.  I don't think he could have remained in the TFbut signed up for three years in 1919.

 

The Territorial Force was reconstituted in 1921 and renamed the Territorial Army in October of that year.  His transition to the new reserve force would have been comparatively seamless.  (It is of course entirely possible he was serving in the Volunteers prior to 1908).

 

Ken

 

One final point as he served beyond 1920 his record may well be with the MOD

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

 

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, Liz Hall said:

Simple when it's explained!

No aspersion on you - I meant as in short - just know there are other pals who could write a long book or several on such subjects [some probably have done] - trying to avoid a major come-uppance for my lack of much/detailed knowledge!

I still await ... !

:-) M

[travers61]

He is not showing in the UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971 on ancestry as having a record at the Mod, but this index is incomplete & I think the only way to know for sure if his record has surived is to apply for it. They should refund/not cash the cheque if they can't find him.

[Liz Hall]

Thanks Kenf48. 

 

He did indeed serve in the 2nd Volunteer Battalion in 1906 and the 2nd Battalion 1919-22.  This information was obtained from MoD 4 years ago and they supplied all copies of papers from his re-enlistment into the 5th in 1922.  Previously I just received a couple of lines saying he served in the TA 1922-35 until he became over age 

 

They also supplied copy of his enlistment docs into the 5th Loyals (National Defence Companies) No D3472 but his service only lasted from June 1939 to Feb 1940 - Serjeant again.

It was worth the money on this occasion!!

 

Thanks Travers 61

I didn't know about Discharge Indexes on Ancestry but then(as you can probably tell) I am a technophobe.

 

Cheers

LIZ