Private John Turner, 2/5th LF, d.o.d 12/9/1916, Signaller?

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

In his diary, covering the period from August 1914 to January 1919, my grandfather inevitably frequently records the death of comrades. As I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum, I am preparing the diary for publication later this year, and am including a “Roll of Honour”, listing the names of all those whom my grandfather mentions who did not survive. For almost every death which my grandfather refers to, I have been able to find a matching entry in the Commonwealth War Graves’ Commission’s records. There are just two exceptions to this. I will address one in this post, and the other in a separate post at a later date.

Following a raid by the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers at Blairville on 28 June 1916, my grandfather says:

Signallers J. Manock and J. Turner were killed.

I have found the entry for Joe Manock in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission’s records, but there is no entry for a J. Turner on or about that day.

There is a detailed casualty list in the Battalion War Diary for the raid, unusually identifying Other Ranks by name, as well as officers, but again, no sign of J. Turner.

I am fairly certain that what has happened here is that my grandfather has confused two signallers, Private J. Turner, and Private Ogden, as Private Francis Ogden appears in the Battalion casualty list next to Private Manock. The list is not in alphabetical order, and their proximity may indicate that they were killed together. I know that there was a signaller called Ogden, as my grandfather was originally Battalion Signals Officer, and listed Private Ogden as one of the men in his section in 1915 (along with a J. Turner). I am therefore going to include Francis Ogden in the Roll of Honour. I have a small query about this man’s service number, as the Battalion casualty list gives it as 1786, while the CWGC gives it as 200350. What is the explanation for the two different numbers?

My main query relates to Private J. Turner. I do not wish to simply remove him from the Roll of Honour if he also died on the Western Front (which possibly would partly explain the reason for the confusion). I have found out from the CWGC records that a John Turner, Service number 3122, of the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers, died on 12 September 1916. Can anyone tell me more about the death of  this John Turner, and, in particular, whether he was a signaller? I know that his death was on the Somme, in an action in which my grandfather had earlier been wounded, and he is buried at Delville Wood Cemetery. The Battalion War Diary does not assist with any further details, merely mentioning that they were holding Pilsen Trench and had 12 casualties on the day in question.

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Battalion casualty list gives it as 1786, while the CWGC gives it as 200350. What is the explanation for the two different numbers?

All territorial soldiers were renumbered in late 1916 / early 1917 to try and solve some of the confusion that previous numbering systems had caused.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

According to the Ministry of Pension records #3122 was George Turner. The soldiers' effects records have him as John Turner. He is listed as Killed in Action with 2/5th. No mention of anything as a signaller, just as private (which is what I would expect).

 

Craig

[PRC]

9 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

All territorial soldiers were renumbered in late 1916 / early 1917 to try and solve some of the confusion that previous numbering systems had caused.

 

 

Francis Ogden has no known grave and is remembered on the Arras War Memorial. Does not look like there is any missing person enquiry for him held by the International Committee of the Red Cross, but considering he was included in the renumbering exercise at the start of 1917 it is likely that his status at the time was still "Missing". Clues may come from the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, (Ancestry) both in date of death, i.e. "Presumed died on or after 28th June 1916" and when the balance on his account was sent to his next of kin.

 

Compare that with 3122 John (or George) Turner who according to the concentration report on his CWGC webpage appears to have been a battlefield burial. With his fate known at the time he does not appear to have been included in the renumbering exercise. As well as the information on CWGC that Private Turner was aged 27 and the son of Mrs. Jane Turner, of 77, Wood St., Elton, Bury, all that Soldiers Died in the Great War adds is that he was born and enlisted Bury.

 

The most likely match on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was a 21 year old Boilermakers Labourer, John Turner, born Bury, Lancashire, who was recorded living at 104 Wood Street, Elton, Bury, Lancashire. This was the household of his 56 year old widowed mother Jane. Jane states her marriage produced five children, all then still alive. As well as John she has an unmarried daughter Lizzie Turner, an unmarried son William Mellor(?) Turner, a mother-in-law and a brother-in-law living with her. John Turner is a bit too common a name to track down in the birth records, so I went looking for older brother William, (census details, aged 25, born Manchester). There were two William Mellor Turners born in Lancashire in the right time frame.

Q1 1886 Manchester District - mothers' maiden name Huddlestone.

Q4 1886 Chorlton District - mothers' maiden name Turner.

Although the pre-1911 records are incomplete a check for children registered with the surname Turner, mothers maiden name Huddlestone also brought up a John Turner, (Bury District, Q3 1889) and a Mary Elizabeth Turner, (Manchester District, Q4 1882 - on the census 'Lizzie' was aged 28 and born Manchester). So no clue there as to where the first name George came from - if the right family and births have been identified.

 

Of course John Turner could have been wounded in the action on the 28th June but later returned to the unit only to subsequently die. May be worthwhile checking casualty lists and local newspapers as that might explain the confusion.

 

I assume you have been through the Battalion War Diary checking out appendices. Operational Orders can sometimes be quite insightful in listing other ranks with specialist roles, especially when there is a detailed plan of attack to be followed.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you so much both of you. Peter, I see you were burning the midnight oil, but that is really detailed information, and much appreciated, thank you.

I have indeed checked the Battalion War Diary for casualties. Because this was a special raid involving only 50 men the casualty list is quite detailed, and gives the name of all the wounded, including privates, as well as those killed. J. Turner is not among them.

I still think that the most likely explanation is that my grandfather knew that 2 signallers had been killed in the raid, and also knew that J. Turner had been killed that year, and got his wires slightly crossed when writing his diary. He began writing it in 1919, so fairly close to the actual event, but long enough afterwards for some details to have become confused. I don't suppose that he would have had access the the official war diaries as we do now.

He does mention in his diary that he consulted the Lancashire Fusiliers Annual on at least one occasion. Is this still extant, and, if so, where is it, and Is it likely to name individual casualties or give any more information about the circumstances in which the casualties died on 12 September 1916?

I had thought about the possibility of consulting the local press, the most likely publication being the Bury Times, but WW1 editions are not available digitally, only by a personal visit to Bury Archives, obviously not possible at the moment. I assume that it is unlikely that there would be more than a bare minimum amount of detail entered in respect of a private in any event, but is it possible (even likely?) that the report might have included the word "signaller"? Roughly how long after the death would a report have appeared in the paper?

If I can't find any more definte information I will include the J. Turner who died on 12 September 1916 in the Roll of Honour in any event, with the caveat that we can't be certain that he was the signaller whom my grandfather knew. The one thing that we do know about him for certain is that he died on that day, and, after all, they all deserve to be honoured, don't they?

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Hi, when I searched the National Archives' Medal Cards before I started this thread I searched "J. Turner 3122", thinking that that would produce John Turner whether he was entered as "J. Turner" or "John Turner". I now realise that that is incorrect, as I have searched again against John Turner 3122, and found him. His medal card is attached.

The point of interest is that he is shown as arriving in France on 04/05/1915, which I think must considerably increase the chances of it being the Signaller, as my grandfather listed the Signallers in his section, to include J. Turner, in his diary entry for 19/04/15, when they were in Bedford, just before embarking for France on 03/05/15, arriving either very late on 03/05/15, or in the early hours of 04/05/15.

I don't suppose that there are embarcation lists that I could search are there? The boat my grandfather sailed on was SS. Victoria.

Is there any other entry on the MIC which might throw light on whether this man was a Signaller?

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Is there any other entry on the MIC which might throw light on whether this man was a Signaller?

Unfortunately not.

Craig

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, Craig, for your prompt response. I will resign myself to dealing with it as in post # 5  

[RussT]

18 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I don't suppose that there are embarcation lists that I could search are there? The boat my grandfather sailed on was SS. Victoria.

 

The 1914-1915 Star medal roll for the 2/5th Bn LF is seemingly made out in alphabetical order with each man's date of disembarkation.

 

You can therefore effectively re-construct the whole Bn that disembarked on 04/05/1915.

 

There are 3 Turners on the Roll that I can see (all disembarking on 04/05/1915)

 

2925 J Turner

2481 B Turner

3122 J Turner

 

Regards

 

Russ

[PRC]

6 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I still think that the most likely explanation is that my grandfather knew that 2 signallers had been killed in the raid, and also knew that J. Turner had been killed that year, and got his wires slightly crossed when writing his diary.

 

Sounds very likely.

 

6 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

He began writing it in 1919, so fairly close to the actual event, but long enough afterwards for some details to have become confused. I don't suppose that he would have had access the the official war diaries as we do now.

 

Depends on his rank and connection at that point to the Lancashire Fusiliers. As far as I'm aware the Regiment would still have held a copy.

 

6 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I had thought about the possibility of consulting the local press, the most likely publication being the Bury Times, but WW1 editions are not available digitally, only by a personal visit to Bury Archives, obviously not possible at the moment. I assume that it is unlikely that there would be more than a bare minimum amount of detail entered in respect of a private in any event, but is it possible (even likely?) that the report might have included the word "signaller"? Roughly how long after the death would a report have appeared in the paper?

 

I'd normally suggest if you were resident in the UK to try the free access to the British Newspaper Archive at your local public library, (most have subscribed) - but sadly not an option at the moment. Once you get past the quirky transcription software, it is at least searchable. Going to an archive to check what is probably a micro-filmed copy is a very, very, very long haul with absolutely no gurantee there is anything to find.

 

In my experience most of the content in newspapers about local soldiers comes from items and pictures supplied by family & freelancers. So a reference to a particular soldier could turn up at any point - when he joined up, when he went out, letters home containing something regarded as newsworthy, home on leave, his death \ missing report \ now treated as dead report, a photogallery associated with a particular family triggered by another event, photogallery of individuals from a particular location \ workplace \ sports club, requests for information from returning PoWs, (these can turn up in other parts of the country if the soldier concerned wasn't serving in a local unit), etc, etc.

 

As far as a more focused search is concerned based around his date of death, then anywhere between 4 and 10 weeks would be likely to see him turn up in the official Casualty Lists - but there your man would be described as a Private. Unofficially the family might have been informed by the deceased soldiers mates or his CO as early as the first week. I think the quickest I've come across is killed in action on Friday and mentioned on Monday - but then the father was a typesetter for the newspaper concerned.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you all.

Reading what you have all said, especially RussT's comments, I now think that the identity of the Signaller J. Turner is narrowed down to J. Turner 2925 or J. Turner 3122.

I attach the medal card of the former, from which it seems that he was awarded the MM. Having looked in the Regimental History, it seems that the only J. Turner in the Lancashire Fusiliers who was awarded the MM was J. Turner 200980, 200980, being the alternative number on the MIC. The award was published in the London Gazette on 28 September 1917. Unfortunately the Regimental History does not have any other details of how the MM was won. I have had a quick look at the Battalion War Diary, and see that a number of awards were made for gallantry on 20 September 1917, but J. Turner's name was not among them. Anyway, maybe the incident that led to the award would have to be earlier than that if it was published in the Gazette on 28 September 1917?

That is as far as I have got at the moment!

 

Edited 23 June , 2020 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[PRC]

The entry in the London Gazette connects him to Rochdale.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30312/supplement/10036/data.pdf

 

The next entry in the same list is 200684 Private R Turner, Lancashire Fusiliers, from Bury.

 

I had a look at a couple of pages on either side - on page 10034 there is 200694 Private J Rothwell from Bury & 200946 Private W. Rouse from Radcliffe. There are other members of the Lancashire Fusiliers on those pages, but their service numbers indicate they were Kitchener Army men. Of couse by this point of the war they may have transferred in to the 2/5.

 

I would suspect this was in connection with the capture of Spree Farm on the 31st July 1917 and the subsequent actions againt German counterattacks until the Division was relieved on the 3rd August. 

 

Cheers,

Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you Peter, I have had a look in the Battalion Diary, and see that an entry for 25 August 1917 records the award of MMs to Sgt R.C. Baldwin, L/Sgt A. Olive, Cpl E. Fox, L/Cpl J. Turner, Pte A. Barren, Pte C. Daynes, Pte R. Turner (it looks like "C" rather than "R", but the number corresponds), Pte W. Rouse, Pte J. Rothwell. No other information is given, but having looked at Thomas Floyd's At Ypres with Best-Dunkley he has a similar, but not identical, list of 11 MMs (curiously he doesn't mention L/Cpl J. Turner, but he mentions a L/Cpl Furnes, Sgt Hudson and Pte Fitzpatrick), saying it was for actions on 31 July 1917, as you say, in the vicinity of Spree Farm. I will see if the Brigade Diary has any more details tomorrow. If not, presumably there is a reasonable chance that the local press might have a fuller account of what part James Turner played in the action.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

No further reference in the Brigade War Diary to specific actions by individuals I'm afraid.

However, the expertise on this site never ceases to amaze me, as I am now able to attach a copy of the MIC for Francis Ogden, and find that, as surmised by Peter in # 4, his death on 28 June 1916 was "assumed".

[PRC]

Just hope someone on here with access to Ancestry can confirm when the balance of his pay was sent to his next of kin - that would give you an end date for the period he was regarded as missing and so another possible indicator of when he might get a mention in a local newspaper.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thanks, Peter. I think it very likely that Francis Ogden was a Signaller, though I suppose that a newspaper report might confirm it.

On the subject of newspaper reports for the Turners, I had thought it quite likely that James' Turner's MM would have featured in the local press, which would have been the Rochdale Observer. WW1 editions of the Rochdale Observer, unlike those of the Bury Times, are available on the British Newspaper Archive. I do not subscribe to that online, but it looks as though you can do a search, and download up to 3 images for free without subscribing. However, my search for various permutations of James Turner, Military Medal, Lancashire Fusiliers for the period August 1917 to December 1917 has not revealed any relevant entries. Have I covered a long enough period, or should I search even later? Am I wrong in thinking that the award of an MM could always be expected to be of interest to the local press?

[PRC]

23 hours ago, PRC said:

In my experience most of the content in newspapers about local soldiers comes from items and pictures supplied by family & freelancers.

 

I find it helps me to bear this in mind. Local newspapers did not usually maintain a large newsroom even in peacetime, so reporters were probably focused on stories that could be sold on elsewhere, while the bulk of the news content came from agency reports and items supplied by family - either directly or via a freelancer. One of the agency sources would have provided customised casualty reports based on each newspaper companies expressed preference. This might include Military Medal winners from a local regiment, or Military Medal winners with a home town in the area, or both.They would contain no more than the one liner you can see in the London Gazette. An enterprising freelancer might then track the family down, but a journalist would probably only be interested if the medal was presented by a local dignitary - my understanding is that the award of the MM came with UK leave for those in France & Flanders. Even if news also came in from family or a freelancer it would only reference the citation if the details had been passed on to the family by the soldier - otherwise it may simply confirm that a Miliary Medal has been awarded and so add very little.

 

If the mans family, (and I'm including his wife and children in that), have moved away from the area, or have died, then there may be no one to send something in to the press.

 

The local press will however be the place most likely to refer to a soldier as a Signaller rather by his actual rank of Private, or show a picture of the soldier with his Signaller badge on his sleeve.

 

I wrote the above a couple of hours ago but was called away to check something before I'd had a chance to read through and correct the inevitable typos. By the time I came back Norfolk County Council had re-instated my access to FindMyPast via my library account, (kudos guys!). If you are a member of your local public library then you may want to check their website out to see if they are current offering remote access to the likes of Ancestry or FindMyPast as the libraries themself are shut.

 

Checking out the BNA via that, I couldn't immediately turn up a reference to the award of the Military Medal, but a search for "Turner" + "200940" "200980" (as per Russ T's post below - my error) brought him up in the Casualty report that appeared in the edition of the Rochdale Observer dated 15th June 1918. It simply shows him as J. Turner M.M, with no rank, unit, or hometown - however in that case if you scoot up to the header it says that means he was a Private in the Lancashire Fusiliers and his home town was Rochdale. He came under the category header "Missing".

 

The International Committee of the Red Cross has a repatriation report for him. It has him as Lance Corporal 200940 200980 (as per Russ T's post below - my error) J Turner and serving with the 1st Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5793289/3/2/

There is a second card for a Lance Corporal James Turner, no service number shown, when he was captured unwounded with "C" Company, 1st Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers at Sailly on the 11th April 1918. His next of kin was a Mr. Turner, of Kenyon Foal Farm, Bamford, Rochdale. He himself is shown as born Bamford on the 23rd January 1892.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3649477/3/2/

Unfortunately it gets even messier. The next card is for a Fusilier James Turner of the 2/5th Battalion who was captured at Givenchy on the 26th April 1918. No service number is shown. His next of kin was a Mr Turner of 51 Rossall Street, Pendleton, Manchester. That James was born Salford 2nd February 1898.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4446512/3/2/

 

So potentially 200940 200980 (as per Russ T's post below - my error) J. Turner was not with the 2nd/5th on the 31st July 1917 - which is at odds with the Battalion War Diary but not necessarily with the other source you quoted. When I first saw the London Gazette entry my initial suspicion was the opening weeks of Passchendaele. The 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers were part of the 29th Division who became involved at Passchendaele on the 15th August 1917 when they took part in the opening day of the Battle of Langemarck.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/29th-division/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Langemarck_(1917)

 

If that James Turner could be eliminated then that would narrow the candidates to the one soldier.

 

Here's hoping,

Peter

Edited 24 June , 2020 by PRC
Correction of my senior moment

[ss002d6252]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

Just hope someone on here with access to Ancestry can confirm when the balance of his pay was sent to his next of kin - that would give you an end date for the period he was regarded as missing and so another possible indicator of when he might get a mention in a local newspaper.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

It was in to 1917 for Ogden - payments were made in Sep 1917 so that sets the upper limit.

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

21 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

 

Reading what you have all said, especially RussT's comments, I now think that the identity of the Signaller J. Turner is narrowed down to J. Turner 2925 or J. Turner 3122.

Unless I'm missing something the dead man cannot be #2925 as there's no evidence he died.

 

Craig

[RussT]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

So potentially 200940 J. Turner was not with the 2nd/5th on the 31st July 1917 - which is at odds with the Battalion War Diary but not necessarily with the other source you quoted. When I first saw the London Gazette entry my initial suspicion was the opening weeks of Passchendaele. The 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers were part of the 29th Division who became involved at Passchendaele on the 15th August 1917 when they took part in the opening day of the Battle of Langemarck.

 

Do you mean 200980 J Turner?

 

His VM/BWM medal roll shows he ended up with 1/LF (having started with 2/5 LF).

 

Regards

 

Russ

[PRC]

1 hour ago, RussT said:

Do you mean 200980 J Turner?

 Sorry  -  you're quite correct. Fat finger problem at my end. Have amended the original post - but hopefully in a good way :-)

 

2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

It was in to 1917 for Ogden - payments were made in Sep 1917 so that sets the upper limit.

1 hour ago, RussT said:

His VM/BWM medal roll shows he ended up with 1/LF (having started with 2/5 LF).

 

Thank you both for checking.

 

 

I couldn't see anything obvious for James Turner on the casualty reports showing up in the FindMyPast version of the Newspaper Archive under either service number. But that would only cover if he was wounded. If he was posted to the 1st Battalion on return from accidental injury or sickness then in the absense of a surviving service record, once again local press may be your only route to discover it. FindMyPast don't have him cropping up in any of the admission & discharge books for medical facilities that have survived. However contrary to what it says on the Medal Index Card for 200980 James Turner, FindMyPast have a transcription for him in the Silver War Badge Roll. He enlisted 2nd November 1914 and was discharged on the 10th March 1919  - I believe as no longer physically fit to serve. He was 28 years old when discharged.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 24 June , 2020 by PRC
Can't even get my corrections correct

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Hi, thank you  all for all your help.

Just to recap, I asked if anyone could tell me more about John Turner, Service no 3122, 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, who died on the Somme on 12 September 1916, and is buried at Delville Wood Cemetery, in particular whether he was a Signaller. I was trying to establish whether my grandfather, who clearly made an error when he referred to a J. Turner, a Signaller, as having died with Joe Manock, also a Signaller, on 28 June 1916, may have been led into making the error because J. Turner, who was known to him as having been in his signalling section, did in fact die later the same year.

I am sorry that I omitted to mention in my opening post - because I did not realise that it might be relevant - that the date when J. Turner was listed by my grandfather as being in his signalling section was 19 April 1915, and that they must have travelled to France together with the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers on  3/4 May 1915.

It subsequently became clear from Russ's post about the 1914/15 Star medal roll, that there were only two candidates for the Signaller whom my grandfather knew, John Turner, Service no 3122, and James Turner, Service no 1786 or 200980. 

All we know about John Turner is that he was a boilerman's labourer in civilian life before he joined up, that he was in the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers,  landed in France on 4 May 1915, and that he died on the Somme on 12 September 1916.

We know quite a lot more about James Turner, namely that he enlisted on 2nd November 1914, initially being in the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, landed in France on 4 May 1915, won the MM at Ypres on or about 31 July 1917 (gazetted 28 September 1917), at some time transferred to the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, presumably after a period in Britain recuperating from being wounded, possibly in the action at Ypres (at least that is what happened to my grandfather, who was transferred after being wounded in September 1916), was reported missing in the Rochdale Observer on 15 June 1918 (possibly in early April as a result of the fighting around Bucquoy?), then was repatriated by the Red Cross on 2 December 1918, and finally was discharged as being unfit for service with the Silver War Badge on 10 March 1919. 

I think all this hangs together and is consistent with the documents, save that you would have expected the Silver War Badge to be mentioned on his MIC.

Overall, although I know we can't be certain, my conclusion is that John Turner Service no 3122 was probably the Signaller mentioned by my grandfather on 19 April 1915. Apart from thinking that this would go some way to explaining why my grandfather thought that the Signaller J. Turner had been killed on 28 June 1916, I also think it likely that if the Signaller J. Turner had appeared with the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers at a time when my grandfather was with them (he was with them in France from June 1917 to August 1918) my grandfather would very probably have mentioned this fact, especially if the man had acquired an MM in the meantime. He also mentions that in September 1917 he was told by Padre Newman (the Padre with the 2/5th LF) that the 2/5th had won 11 MMs at Ypres, but he doesn't mention that he knew any of the individuals who won them.

Edited 25 June , 2020 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I also think it likely that if the Signaller J. Turner had appeared with the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers at a time when my grandfather was with them (he was with them in France from June 1917 to August 1918) my grandfather would very probably have mentioned this fact, especially if the man had acquired an MM in the meantime.

 

One slight qualification - the John Turner who won the Military Medal ended up with the 1st Battalion, not the 1st/5th, so this possibility doesn't arise.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 25 June , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

21 hours ago, PRC said:

His VM/BWM medal roll shows he ended up with 1/LF (having started with 2/5 LF).

Is the above the evidence that he ended up with the 1st Battalion, and is it completely reliable? I had rather assumed that 1/LF might have been shorthand for 1/5th LF in the circumstances. Would it be usual for a man to transfer from a Territorial to a regular Battalion?

I see that the second man whose Red Cross card you have referenced in # 17 was also in the 1st Battalion. Initially I tried to fit him in as being the same man as James Turner, Service no 200890, but in the end gave up and decided that that one must be a different Turner partly because of the reference to the 1st Battalion, also because I assume that it would be quite unusual for a single individual to have two Red Cross cards, and also because he would have been 27, not 28, on 10th March 1919 (date of discharge in # 21). Even if the MM man, Service no 200890, was transferred to the 1st Battalion, I still think that it would be quite difficult to square him with being the man who was born at Kenyon Foal Farm for the other two reasons.

[RussT]

1/LF was my shorthand for 1st Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers. This comes from the medal roll which is quite reliable although not completely error free like any other record set.

 

From circa mid 1916 onwards it was quite common for men to be posted or transferred from one unit to another. The regulations were such that by that time all men were generally treated the same regardless of their original terms of engagement.

 

Regards

 

Russ