JMB1943 Posted 14 June , 2020 Share Posted 14 June , 2020 There has been a dearth of threads here about the P.1907 lately, so here is a post about a less commonly seen P.'07. Photos are shown of a Rifle Factory, Ishapore (R.F.I., Indian sub-continent) full-length Patt. 1907 bayonet that recently came my way. Skennerton’s book (Brit. & Commonwlth Bayonets) does not give production numbers for WWI, so I don’t know how scarce it might be; however, it is a long time since I have seen one for sale. This bayonet is identical (save the ricasso markings) to the P.07’s made in the UK.; it has the fullers, semi-spear point, clearance hole in the pommel, no false edge, and is without the hooked quillon. However, bayonet wt. = 518 g, which is greater than the weights of all but 5 of 142 British-made P.07’s that were surveyed by Trajan and myself several years ago on GWF. LHS ricasso bears Crown / G.R.I. /1907 / 11 17 / R.F.I. G.R.I = Georgius Rex Imperator = George, King-Emperor (of India). RHS ricasso shows broad arrow / I for acceptance by Indian Govt.; X for proof of bend test; several inspection stamps are also present. The bayonet came with a WW2 (dated 1945) scabbard made in the UK. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 June , 2020 Share Posted 14 June , 2020 In my experience, surviving FULL LENGTH Ishapore bayonets are actually reasonably uncommon - such was the period of time that ShtLEs of various types remained in service in India and the massive program (WWII on) of shortening bayonets even if production numbers were large they were nearly matched by the later conversion (shortening) programs - I try to pick up full length Ishapore bayonets whenever I see them. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Higgs Posted 15 June , 2020 Share Posted 15 June , 2020 This is my RFI 1907 bayonet,all metal work is blued and theres the remains of green paint on the pommel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 16 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2020 Driver H, That is a nice example (scabbard also) that you have there; stampings are all crisp and tidy. To my eye, the blued 17" blade looks very menacing. The scabbard looks to be of the original design (pear-shaped frog button, figured edges to locket & chape) but he rivet heads have not been ground flat. This was allowed for manufacture during the GW; does the scabbard bear any markings? According to Skennerton, your bayonet was one of about 750,000 made in the period Sep. 1939 - Aug. 1945. But as 4th Gordons notes, it is not easy to find a full-length survivor. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 17 April Share Posted 17 April On 15/06/2020 at 01:25, JMB1943 said: There has been a dearth of threads here about the P.1907 lately, so here is a post about a less commonly seen P.'07. Photos are shown of a Rifle Factory, Ishapore (R.F.I., Indian sub-continent) full-length Patt. 1907 bayonet that recently came my way. Skennerton’s book (Brit. & Commonwlth Bayonets) does not give production numbers for WWI, so I don’t know how scarce it might be; however, it is a long time since I have seen one for sale. This bayonet is identical (save the ricasso markings) to the P.07’s made in the UK.; it has the fullers, semi-spear point, clearance hole in the pommel, no false edge, and is without the hooked quillon. However, bayonet wt. = 518 g, which is greater than the weights of all but 5 of 142 British-made P.07’s that were surveyed by Trajan and myself several years ago on GWF. LHS ricasso bears Crown / G.R.I. /1907 / 11 17 / R.F.I. G.R.I = Georgius Rex Imperator = George, King-Emperor (of India). RHS ricasso shows broad arrow / I for acceptance by Indian Govt.; X for proof of bend test; several inspection stamps are also present. The bayonet came with a WW2 (dated 1945) scabbard made in the UK. Regards, JMB Are you still taking weights data on RFI full lengths? I have a handful myself that I can measure. Unfortunately all from 1917. Kind regards, g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 17 April Author Share Posted 17 April Hello Navydoc, Any weights of these that you have, along with date of manufacture, would be well-received. [Also of those WILK blanks if they are handy.] Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 21 April Share Posted 21 April I’m in the process of getting a more analogue scale, so I’ll weight them and PM you some details kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April (edited) I have purchased a new scale along with another RFI, photos to follow. I will say it is a slight shame to see bayonets like Mole and Vickers mentioned as such rarities, I see maybe 2-3 full length legible RFIs per year. I have into “threes digits” of 1907s and still only have 2 WW1 dated, one interwar and 2 WW2 dated bayonets. perhaps this has something to do with geographical regions of these Indian bayonets- but even converted RFI from the GW era into shortened patterns 1907 MK1 - they are still rare, kind regards g Edited 28 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April (edited) For some reason, quantities of 12” blade Indian P1907 bayonets turned up in the UK in the early 2000’s. Mostly WWII RFI made examples, although there were some earlier cut down examples and also some made by other WWII makers such as NWR. Fortunately I acquired examples of the three main types at the time when they were relatively plentiful and affordable. They’re still fairly easy to find as they aren’t as sought after as WWI dated 17” examples. Uncut 17” RFI P1907s are another matter. I managed to pull a cheap 1920 dated one out of a box of rusty P1907s at the War & Peace show, although it needed a good clean + a replacement scabbard and grips and bolts. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/272216-indian-brass-hilted-p1907-bayonet-scabbard/ Edited 28 April by peregrinvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattr82 Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April In 2020, there was a 1913 Ishapore HQ bayonet being sold for $400 at an arms fair. I saw it but passed on it assuming it might have been a fake. Ian Sk tells me the next day that someone got an absolute bargain after he saw it and identified is a legit. Would have been a nice addition to the collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April 1 hour ago, peregrinvs said: For some reason, quantities of 12” blade Indian P1907 bayonets turned up in the UK in the early 2000’s. Mostly WWII RFI made examples, although there were some earlier cut down examples and also some made by other WWII makers such as NWR. Fortunately I acquired examples of the three main types at the time when they were relatively plentiful and affordable. They’re still fairly easy to find as they aren’t as sought after as WWI dated 17” examples. Uncut 17” RFI P1907s are another matter. I managed to pull a cheap 1920 dated one out of a box of rusty P1907s at the War & Peace show, although it needed a good clean + a replacement scabbard and grips and bolts. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/272216-indian-brass-hilted-p1907-bayonet-scabbard/ Yes I saw that one, she is beautiful non the less - if you ever decide to move it on, please message me my interwar RFI is not so nice, has been refinished too many times. Funnily enough, they showed up everywhere and all at once. A decent friend of mine took his pickings of alot of the warehouses at RFI at that time and brought them to Australia. Last name Lawrence - he should be relatively familiar to those Aussies on here. The Indians had gotten to the point that the warehouses were not fit for storage, so they had to either sell it off, or truely get it to the point that it was irrecoverable. They sold alot of firearms accessories, but funnily enough - he couldn't get export permits for alot of the early muzzle loading stuff that he actually wanted for his own personal collection. The bayonets themselves are interesting in their own right and rather fun to collect - however nice examples are now bringing easily 250-350 AUD here, and quite a bit more for rarer stuff between collectors - Just sold off a duplicate MkIII with no false edge to a friend for quite a sum plus a trade for a rare NWR MkIII. The sad thing for me is that alot of the Indian service stories have been sidestepped from Great War history, and those full length 17" from RFI saw just as much as any other maker - but every once in a while they are discounted over English and Australian 1907's for no particularly good reason. kind regards, g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April 3 hours ago, navydoc16 said: The sad thing for me is that alot of the Indian service stories have been sidestepped from Great War history, and those full length 17" from RFI saw just as much as any other maker - but every once in a while they are discounted over English and Australian 1907's for no particularly good reason. Not by everyone! Indian produced or modified bayonets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April @4thGordons noticing a couple MkIII, have you found a JU or MIL yet? what is your earliest RFI full length? I am yet to obtain a pre-great war but have a 1916 and 1917 kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 April Share Posted 29 April (edited) Yes I have JU MIL and NWR - also a couple where the mark they are stamped with doesn’t match their format but that is reasonably common I think the earliest full P1907 is 1916. I don’t believe I have seen any pre dating that. I have a couple of Indian refurbed P1903 bayonets too. Edited 29 April by 4thGordons capitalisation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 April Share Posted 29 April Quick check of Skennerton and Richardson suggests that pre war production of P1907 bayonets was very limited (because of the Indian preference for the P1903) so I suspect an Indian Hooked Quillon P1907 is a very rare beast. The standard model (w/o hooked quillon) was introduced in 1914. So I suspect your search for a pre-war example might be a long one. (Skennerton and Richardson p345/6) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 29 April Share Posted 29 April 18 minutes ago, 4thGordons said: Yes I have JU MIL and NWR - also a couple where the mark they are stamped with doesn’t match their format but that is reasonably common I think the earliest full P1907 is 1916. I don’t believe I have seen any pre dating that. I have a couple of Indian refurbed P1903 bayonets too. Could you pm me or post pics of your JU or MIL- 1907 Mk3, square pommel. I am struggling to find either or pics of either took me 2 years to find the NWR Mk3 Kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 29 April Share Posted 29 April 5 minutes ago, 4thGordons said: So I suspect your search for a pre-war example might be a long one. (Skennerton and Richardson p345/6) Yes I’m sure it will be quite long, I have only seen a handful sell, as well as what appears to be some very convincing fakes. there is a “significant” price premium for a hooked RFI in the right circles. kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 April Share Posted 29 April 53 minutes ago, navydoc16 said: Could you pm me or post pics of your JU or MIL- 1907 Mk3, square pommel. I am struggling to find either or pics of either took me 2 years to find the NWR Mk3 Kind regards g I will look if I have file pics of them - the bayonets themselves are not easily accessible to me at the moment. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 29 April Share Posted 29 April No worries at all @4thGordons appreciate it- if you do find the MIL, I believe Michael Rose may be interested in one for his book, i have very early copies so he maybe had changed it, but I don’t believe he had a example of one of the MkIII MIL or the JU, but I can’t remember which one, off the top of my head - think it was the MIL MkIII kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 29 April Share Posted 29 April (edited) @4thGordons there is a couple Great War and cut down great wars- but no pre war yet…. a couple not pictured as they are on loan, but I did rather enjoy branching out for fun into the Indian field of 1907s. I do wish I had appreciated them earlier when they were much cheaper - but it is what it is kind regards g Edited 29 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted Wednesday at 19:44 Share Posted Wednesday at 19:44 Full length RFI P07s seem to be extremely uncommon in NZ, seen a couple of 40s examples but only 1 great war example up for sale, needless to say the GW example is now in my collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted Wednesday at 21:26 Share Posted Wednesday at 21:26 1 hour ago, 5thBatt said: Full length RFI P07s seem to be extremely uncommon in NZ, seen a couple of 40s examples but only 1 great war example up for sale, needless to say the GW example is now in my collection Out of curiosity, was the 40 or 41 in very good condition- quite bright grey parkerised blade? kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted Thursday at 05:29 Share Posted Thursday at 05:29 14 hours ago, navydoc16 said: Out of curiosity, was the 40 or 41 in very good condition- quite bright grey parkerised blade? kind regards g To long ago to remember sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted Thursday at 23:01 Share Posted Thursday at 23:01 (edited) @5thBatt all good mate, it’s just been a bit of an interest of mine- they all went “somewhere” that wasn’t India (and from the looks of it- into storage) and have pommel serial numbers. something I would love to unravel one day haha kind regards g Edited Thursday at 23:01 by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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