"Declared a Deserter" - Royal Irish Fusiliers

[George Millar]

Hello all,

I’m doing some research on Private George Bogle, 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Service N° 8791.  He was born in Belfast on the on the 15th April 1888 to parents James Bogle and Ellen McKane.  Sometime in 1905/1906 he joined the 1st battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers with a Service N° 8791 and would have served with the battalion initially in Crete and Malta before going to Tientsin in China.  I believe he was discharged to the Army Reserve before WW1 but then later served with the 1st battalion in WW1 with the same service N° 8791.

His Medal Rolls Index Cards show that he also served with the Royal Irish Fusiliers with a Service N° 33432. However, his service Medal & Award Rolls doesn’t list that he served with them, only the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.  I was trying to find out which battalion of the Royal Irish Fusiliers he served with and when he was transferred to them so searching other soldiers with a Service N° close to his I discovered that they mostly enlisted in 1919/1920.  I believe that George enlisted sometime between the 29th September1919 (S/N° 33429) and the 3rd October 1919 (S/N° 33516).  However on looking at their service records I discovered that most of the soldiers in this number range have listed in their records as “declared a deserter” which seems strange to me given the number of them.  Most of them seemed to have served in the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers although not all.

S/N° 32692 Pte Martin Cassidy joined 9th April 1919 - 3rd battalion – “declared a deserter” 14th July 1919

S/N° 33429 Pte Robert Buller Fay joined 29th September 1919 – 2nd battalion – “declared a deserter” 12th February 1920

S/N° 33514 Pte Albert Stanley Abbott joined 10th October 1919 – 2nd battalion – “declared a deserter” 13th February 1920

S/N° 33516 Pte George Herbert Carey joined 3rd October 1919 – 2nd battalion – “declared a deserter” 14th November 1919

S/N° 33538 Pte James Edward Hatton joined 18th October 1919 – 2nd battalion – “declared a deserter” 24th October 1919

S/N° 34030 Pte Richard ?? Hudson Hatton joined 10th April 1920 – 2nd battalion – “declared a deserter” 8th July 1920

S/N° 34074 Pte Patrick Martin joined 26th April 1919 – 2nd battalion – “declared a deserter” 5th July 1920

S/N° 34093 Pte Daniel Kennedy joined 17th May 1920 – 2nd battalion – “declared a deserter” 5th June 1920

Perhaps there is a good reason for this but I can’t imagine a soldier would want being listed as a deserter in his service records.  I presume that George Bogle also had the same thing put in his service record.

Would any member of the forum be able to shed some light on the matter? Thanks in advance

George

[corisande]

The Medal Roll shows him 1st Bat Inniskillings

 

His Pension Card on Fold 3 shows other regts.

 

 

Edited 7 June , 2020 by corisande

[George Millar]

Hello Corisande,

Thanks for the info, the Service N° 33432 is for the Royal Irish Fusiliers, what is the number 7041590 below that?  Is that another Service N°? 

I know that George left the Army in 1920/1921 as he married Maud Wilson on the 21st December 1921  in St Michael's Church of Ireland in Belfast, his occupation being listed as a "Labourer".  Any thoughts on why all the soldiers are listed as "declared as a deserter"?

George

[FROGSMILE]

I wonder if this is anything to do with the disbandment of 5 Irish Regiments planned certainly from 1921 and carried out in 1922.  I say this because it’s sometimes forgotten that it was originally planned that the Royal Irish Fusiliers should go too, but in an act of great generosity the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers volunteered to give up one of their battalions as a compensatory reduction that would allow the RIF to continue in existence with one battalion, albeit that the two battalions were to operate as one regiment in terms of the one battalion home and one battalion on foreign service principle.  This would have led to some preparatory cross postings around that period in order to bring both battalions up to strength for their respective roles at the time. 

Edited 7 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

17 minutes ago, George Millar said:

what is the number 7041590 below that?  Is that another Service N°? 

 

I assume that on a renumbering, I should think that @Frogsmile  could tell you the date it happened

[George Millar]

Thanks Corisande and Frogsmile,

Thanks for your comments; I've noticed in the Long, Long Trail that 7 digit service numbers were issued from 1920 onwards. Would the soldiers who were listed as deserters then have been given seven digit numbers? 

George

[George Millar]

Sorry all,

I've just noticed that the number listed in George's Pension card 7041590 is in the renumbering sequence given to the Royal Irish Fusiliers 7040001 to 7075000 (the long, long trail).  Does this mean that George's service records might be still held  by the Ministry of Defence?

George

[corisande]

Does not answer your question, but if have not seen you would find this interesting

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, George Millar said:

Thanks Corisande and Frogsmile,

Thanks for your comments; I've noticed in the Long, Long Trail that 7 digit service numbers were issued from 1920 onwards. Would the soldiers who were listed as deserters then have been given seven digit numbers? 

George

My knowledge of the numbering system is limited, but it went through gradual reform during WW1 when the exponential increase in enlistment revealed the prevailing system as unwieldy and incapable of coping without systemic duplication.  As I recall it the entire Army was renumbered under a new system in 1920, but there are others in the forum who will be able to give chapter and verse on this far better than I.

 

It is only those who were serving in 1921 and onwards whose records are retained in the MOD/NA.

Edited 7 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

I've seen (individuals) from other regiments marked in this way and in the same time frame. One from my grandfather's roll page who I investigated. In a lot of cases these men were back in the UK and waiting demobilisation and basically just got fed up waiting and "went home", but on paper noted as deserters. As many had signed up for the "duration of war" they felt they had done their bit. Losing their medal entitlement probably the least of their concerns. The chap I looked at does not seem to have got in any real trouble over it - no record of charges or imprisonment, and lived to a good age.

 

[George Millar]

Corisande, Frogsmile and David,

Thanks once again for taking the time to give your comments. Corisande, I hadn't seen the info before on George being wounded in the Dardanelles so many thanks for that, it's another piece of info to be added to his life story.  I have a medical report on him when he was wounded in December 1917, possibly after the Battle of Cambrai.  He was admitted to N° 18 Chicago (USA) General Hospital with wounds to his left leg and right finger.  David, what you say makes perfect sense regarding the men who were fed up waiting and "went home".

Thanks

George

[corisande]

Amazing what is out there. Again does not answer your question, but interesting

 

[George Millar]

Corisande,

Many thanks for the photo and info.  Find below the photo I have of him.

George

[corisande]

1 hour ago, George Millar said:

before going to Tientsin in China

 

Yes, he is in 1911 census as being with Inniskillings there

[George Millar]

Corisande,

Is there any way of establishing when he first enlisted?  The Medical record in 1917/1918 lists him as having completed 12 years of service hence enlisted in 1905/1906.  It also lists him as having completed 41 months with the Field Force which meant that he served in WW1 from 1914.  If he was wounded in Gallipoli, then why wasn't he awarded the 1915 star?  his medal rolls only show the awarding of the BWM and VM?

George

 

[corisande]

I am confused by this. I would have taken the 41 months to mean that he had been in a war zone for 41 months, but that takes you to sometime during the month before 17 Jul 1914 - but there was no war on then and no field force. I suspect that is incorrect

 

But the wounding reports certainly say he was in the Dardanelles in 19 May 1915

 

The LLT gives for 1st Inniskilling

August 1914 : in Trimulgherry, Secunderabad, India.
Recalled to UK and landed at Avonmouth on 10 January 1915.
10 January 1915 : came under command of 87th Brigade in 29th Division. Moved to Rugby.
March 1915 : sailed, going via Egypt, and landed at Cape Helles, Gallipoli, on 25 April 1915.
January 1916 : evacuated from Gallipoli to Egypt.
18 March 1916 : landed at Marseilles for service in France.
5 February 1918 : transferred to 109th Brigade in 36th (Ulster) Division.

 

So yes, he should have got the 1915 star. There is a way to cross-check which I will try to do

 

[edit - you want to get the 1st Inniskilling War Diary for this period}

Edited 7 June , 2020 by corisande

[corisande]

He did get his 1915 Star - it was recorded as Boyle not Bogle. Quite horrific the casualty rate of 1st Inniskilling who landed in Gallipoli

 

[corisande]

So there you have it, he landed in Gallipoli on St Patricks Day 1915 and when admitted to hospital on 17 Dec 1917 he had been with the Expeditionary Force for exactly 32 months months. I suspect that the hospital orderly that recorded his hospital admission data made a years mistake on his time with the Exp Force.

 

That gives him also transfering to Z Reserves 24 Feb 1919

[George Millar]

Great stuff Corisande,

I've just pulled off his Medal Roll Index Card from Ancestry which shows he was awarded the 1915 star.  Like you have pointed out, he is listed as G Boyle, and it only shows the award of the 1915 star, the BWM & VM are on a different Medal card.  Your information also shows that he was discharged to class "Z" on the 24th February 1919 so perhaps he did enlist again after that.  I did download the war diary for the 1st battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers but only from 1916 onwards.

Regards

George

[George Millar]

Corisande,

Just downloaded his Service Medal & Award Roll under the name of George Boyle for the 1915 Star but it shows his name scored out and also includes the accompanying text "Forfeits Dis para 363 X K.R 10/3/1924 - Auth NW/9/2191".  Any clues what this means?  I've seen para 392 K.R before for the "Causes of Discharge" but first time I've seen this.

George

[corisande]

Maybe I should not have taken you down this road !

 

Para 363 X of Kings Regulations says "

(x) Having been convicted by the civil power of ___ or of an offence committed before enlistment

 

You are going to have to search local papers to see what he was convicted of, in case you do not know. Immediately after WW1 virtually any civil offence that involved a prison term resulted in loss of medals. It may be that because of the mis-filing of his name that he lost just the 1915 star, but I cannot be certain of that,

 

In my research of British soldiers who served in the Auxiliary Police in Ireland , there are quite a lot of examples

https://www.theauxiliaries.com/adric-general/criminal-cases/criminal-alphabetic.html

[George Millar]

Hi Corisande,

Sorry for the delay in replying.  I have his BWM so it might have be just the star that he lost. Your list of the men convicted of criminal offences, did you get the information on these from the local papers? I'll have a look and see if I can come up with anything.

Thanks once again

George

[corisande]

I worked from noting that they had forfeited their medals on some sort of military record, to then looking in the newspapers to see if I could find the offence . 
 

If you can find the date that he lost the star, then it will be a month or two before that when he was convicted

 

What tended to happen was that a man on a charge would plead a good service record, but if he was nevertheless sentenced, the the court would inform the army. If he had not raised his service record, then nobody knew

 

you do not know that the offence was necessarily in Ireland. There is a lot of work involved in tracing such a conviction

[George Millar]

Corisande,

I'll do some digging and see what I can come up with.  Many thanks for all your help and the info.

George

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, George Millar said:

Corisande,

Many thanks for the photo and info.  Find below the photo I have of him.

George

For what it’s worth that is an old style khaki drill jacket and confirms service overseas prior to WW1. The 1st Battalion were in India, based at the Trimulgherry cantonment.

Edited 7 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE