Austrian bayonets M 1867, 70/73 used by Germans? It is true?

[Rafal1971]

Was bayonets jatagan M 67, 70/73 etc. used by the Germans in WWI a justified fact? Documents, photos german soldiers with austrian bayonets is welcome?

[AndyBsk]

There was some small numbers of Werndls buyed on commercial market probably in 1914 but mostly used as training and by security units.I personally tend to M73/77 refurbishments already.the ammo was never made by germans.so using with old M70/73 and M73 bayonets is more like possible,as the locking dimmensions are different as by german bayonets.

[Rafal1971]

I never thought about ammunition. Rather, about the available rifle associated with ammunition.

[Rafal1971]

Specifying the question.
The so-called Austrian/German ersatz bayonets with ring spacers in muzzle ring and doorstep on pommel matching German M1888 rifle

Something likie this

 

[AndyBsk]

The rifles Gew88 were confirmed by austrians with Werndl bayonets, (Hintermeier Book) You have there a Werndl M183 NCO bayonet, as some units were mixed is possible the germans used it too, anyway on small range and mostly by securing units probably. Question is too how is the reduction ring in barell ring of crossguard attached, as exist various modifications. Any german unit stamps there?

[Rafal1971]

I have three pieces.
1870/73 with step
70/73 with ring and step (reduction ring is compressed with an MR screw)
73 shortened with step
There are no German markings on them only Austrian
I think Rudiger is drawing (from the IWW period) different ersatzs and Werder with ring in MR

Germans sent Austrians from what I remember tens of thousands of 1888 rifles

[AndyBsk]

Personally i believe the assymetrical rings in barell ring of crossguard could be done by germans, problem is always too that the conversion could be done for austrians by german/austrian mixed units. the second one is too short for germans, the frog is clearly austrian, i would tend to believe this could be a serbian conversion to combat knife, how long is the blade, the shortening of scabbard is field rework not armory done, the NCO details were removed, hook and porteepee ring. Is the barell ring diameter reduced?

Edited 5 June , 2020 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

I always used to think that apart from the Germans with bayonets from the Franco-Prussian War, it was only the Turks who messed around converting old bayonets...

 

Julian

[Rafal1971]

16 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Personally i believe the assymetrical rings in barell ring of crossguard could be done by germans, problem is always too that the conversion could be done for austrians by german/austrian mixed units. the second one is too short for germans, the frog is clearly austrian, i would tend to believe this could be a serbian conversion to combat knife, how long is the blade, the shortening of scabbard is field rework not armory done, the NCO details were removed, hook and porteepee ring. Is the barell ring diameter reduced?

 

In M 1873 blade 24,2cm; MRD -18,5mm. But the step for the M 1888 rifle

 

[AndyBsk]

Maybe the reduction ring was lost in time,anyway a 24cm blade is too short for germans,so it was shortened later probably by other countries?.

[trajan]

1 hour ago, AndyBsk said:

Maybe the reduction ring was lost in time,anyway a 24cm blade is too short for germans,so it was shortened later probably by other countries?.

 

And would match Turkish shortening ...!

 

JB

[AndyBsk]

Maybe yes, but the austrian frog is not obvious by turks. I would think is more a fighting knife rework not used on real rifle in the shortened form.

[Rafal1971]

In German publications bayonets there are such bizarre abbreviations of bayonets 71, 98, 84/98 and 14 that the claim that it cannot be a German bayonet is too far-reaching. Assault knife with the ring and latch left and the hook covering the fingers cut off?
Rather, I would be inclined to repair after breaking the blade or intentionally shortening - too long bayonet in the trench.

The Turks only cut off the upper part of the scabbard and did not enjoy such sophisticated treatments at the end of scabbard

How do I understand the lack of a clear confirmed: in documents, photographs the answer was it Germany used modified Austrian bayonets from 1888 rifle?

So the question remains open ...

[AndyBsk]

Evidetnly the scabbard is a field repair not well done, the frog is there for very long time, so i would tend personally to austrian area and following countries, normally more crossguard part of hook and pommel ring would be left intact when used as bayonets . The hook is very near the blade removed, anyway the Gew88 when reworked for it, is not short rifle and the main german "ersatz" ASG88 bayonets has 31cm blade by them. In Trenches are all these rifles unconfortable, only Kar98AZ could be well used probably. In Austria fronts are not obvious so heavy trenches as in west front. So no problem with, the germans and austrians used obsolete rifles Werndls, Gew71 on security of south  italian area, before its started to heavy war.

[Rafal1971]

After all, after shortening to the length of the knife blade, the ring was not cut. It is still functionally a bayonet and the step suggests German rifle 88 even if it was used by the A-H armies.
One could continue to speculate that since the hook and head ring was removed, the NCO was used by an ordinary soldier.
However, I would bet on the practicality of soldier modification.
Too long, too heavy, the hook catches everything, I don't carry the sling in the trenches. Why do I need all this, for what? We cut ...

[AndyBsk]

Offcoarse it could be shortened and used so, but for what rifle when no adapter ring there? and MRD is 18,7mm, so this bayonet could be attached now only on a Werndl rifle, not other rifle were real for attach.

[Rafal1971]

Mayby this Is explanation of the questions

I find this a few minutes ago :-)

 

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?420841-Austrian-M88-Bayonet-For-German-Gew88&p=3555920#post3555920

 

 

[AndyBsk]

The hook is removed but the blade is not shortened in this way, there is mostly 375mm blade lenght minimal. Prior this time i never saw a 25cm blade on Werndl bayonet only by knife conversions.But maybe it happens so ..