CWGC Archive expert in the house?

[PRC]

The CWGC website on it’s page for the Berlin South Western Cemetery states that after the Great War 38 sailors and soldiers were relocated there from the Doberitz Prisoners of War Camp Cemetery.

 

Unfortunately it looks like the Grave Registration Reports for those interred at the Berlin Cemetery were done in 1925 – after the bodies were relocated. As far as I can tell there are no Concentration Reports for individual servicemen.

 

Can anyone tell me if it’s possible from the CWGC archives to identify who those 38 were.

 

I’m particularly keen to see if there were any “unknown” individuals or ones where there was a name query, or even better still if there is anything from the Doberitz end that would show nationalities as well in case the wrong one has been recorded.

 

This is to close off a line of enquiry on a man who almost certainly died at Le Cateau on the 26th August 1914. But ICRC have a potential report of him wounded and at Cassel later in the year, and a newspaper report from March 1915 has him dying at Doberitz.

 

I can come up with a perfectly plausible but subjective explanation as to how those mistaken identifications could have occurred – there is even someone with the same first initial, similar surname and died in the right period at Doberitz but different regiment, (details from his pension card).

 

I won’t give a name yet as I want the focus to be on the Doberitz records.

 

Any guidance would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[BarbaraG]

I’m intrigued to know the name your looking for. I have been spending some of my ‘free’ time looking for possible references. I’ve identified over 20 of the Casualties (I think) and will send for you to cross reference. Hated you 😁 at one point as this has been quite addictive - enjoyed finding some interesting links. 

Edited 2 June , 2020 by BarbaraG

[Jrmh]

Not sure if it's just coincidence but 38 RN/RMLI are here:

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results/?cemetery=BERLIN+SOUTH-WESTERN+CEMETERY&tab=wardead&fq_servedinliteral=Navy

[PRC]

58 minutes ago, BarbaraG said:

I’m intrigued to know the name your looking for. I have been spending some of my ‘free’ time looking for possible references. I’ve identified over 20 of the Casualties (I think) and will send for you to cross reference. Hated you 😁 at one point as this has been quite addictive - enjoyed finding some interesting links. 

 

BarbaraG.,

 

Thanks for taking a look. The CWGC page for the Cemetery says there are 1,173 identified casualties so you could be in for a long haul  - I'm sure my wife will go halves with you on the cost of a hitman

 

Seriously, I tried a random sample of a 100 thinking I'd find at least one with a Concentration report from anywhere, but they were all just Grave Registration reports dating from 1925.

I honestly think I'm trying to prove a negative in that he's not there. He certainly isn't named. I've used Geoff's search engine as well as the CWGC search facility to look for all the men recorded at that cemetery with what I think are the most likely variations in spelling of the surname, also anyone serving in the same regiment and anyone with the same first initial - but other than the man whose death I think has become mixed up with the man I'm interested in, there is nothing that suggests a potential match.

 

What might still keep alive the possibility that the newspaper report was right and all the other sources for my man, (CWGC, SDGW, MiC, Medal Rolls, Register of Soldiers Effects and Pension Card) are wrong is if:-

 - There was an Unknown soldier amongst the British Graves moved from Doberitz

 - There was a grave with a name query that was not subsequently resolved which was moved from Doberitz

 - There is a record of all the graves at Doberitz and there is one with the "right" name but wrong nationality - as well as British Empire there were French, Belgium and Russian prisoners in the camp.

 

My hope is that the resolution to those possibilities lies in the CWGC archive.

 

As I said I do have one man with a very similar surname who did die at Doberitz, (confirmed from Pension Card and Register of Effects), and whose grave was subsequently moved to Berlin South-Western Cemetery. I could assume he was either the first or last of the 38 and look at the 37 graves either side to see if any are unknown soldiers, but that is making a lot of assumptions.

 

Thanks for your interest.

 

1 hour ago, Jrmh said:

Not sure if it's just coincidence but 38 RN/RMLI are here:

 

Believe it's a co-incidence. The man who died at Doberitz and whose details I believe have got mixed in is a British Infantry man captured at roughly the same time as the man I'm after is recorded as Killed as Action at Le Cateau.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Skipman]

No idea if this would help but entering "Doberitz" on FMP Prisoners of War 1715-1945 gets a book of Doberitz POW's, many RND and RMLI (if thay might be 'Sailors'? You could trawl through them.

 

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbm%2ficrc%2fc_g1_e_04_01_0038%2f0083

 

Mike

[BarbaraG]

The clue for me was your comment re. Concentration graves - so I started to look at Sections and Rows. Now I have 6 pages of notes using CWGC refs. / Pension Records / Soldiers Effects Reg / ICRC Records.

 

Obviously there will some errors - a couple short of definite details just probables. I'll not gamble that your man will be one of them.

 

To be continued....

[PRC]

6 minutes ago, BarbaraG said:

The clue for me was your comment re. Concentration graves - so I started to look at Sections and Rows. Now I have 6 pages of notes using CWGC refs. / Pension Records / Soldiers Effects Reg / ICRC Records.

 

Obviously there will some errors - a couple short of definite details just probables. I'll not gamble that your man will be one of them.

 

To be continued....

 

BarbaraG.

 

@Skipman has pointed me at a great thread from 2014 where as a result of pictures posted of the original grave markers and those interned at Doberitz it's been possible to identify 18 of the graves that were subsequently moved to the Berlin South-Western Cemetery. Hopefully this link will take you to the specific comment.

Might be worth posting your findings there as well - it's certainly a thread worthy of revival

 

Cheers,

Peter

[BarbaraG]

Hope you can follow - and that notes legible

 

 

[BarbaraG]

Continued...

[BarbaraG]

All is forgiven - well you live in Norfolk where I have family roots - my great grandfather was a Policemen in Norwich - the only one to patrol Ber street alone!

 

Have 'enjoyed' this - although very saddened to realise how awful it must have been to have no news. 

 

 

[BarbaraG]

Just found the photographs - WOW

 

TNA has 5 digital documents - free downloads at present  - some references to Doberitz. Have downloaded to study later.

 

WO 161/100/286

WO 161/100/576

WO 161/97/26

WO 161/99/215

WO 161/99/145

Edited 3 June , 2020 by BarbaraG

[PRC]

Just working my way through but a quick few updates.

 

SS/104526 Alfred James MATTHEWS - Royal Naval Division records held as MaThews and shows died at Doberitz.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7293249

 

SS/105756 George SHARMAN Royal Naval Division records shows died at Doberitz of Heart Collapse following Pneumonia.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7294477

 

797 A B HAYCOCK is KW/797 Able Seaman Henry MAYCOCK and his Royal Naval Division records shows at died at Doberitz - blood poisoning following compound fracture of calf of leg

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7293266

 

5192 W MALCOLM (PO/5192/A William Malcolm) - Royal Naval Division records shows accidentally killed at Doberitz

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7293177

 

Thanks again,

Peter

 

[PRC]

@BarbaraG

 

Thank you for all that brilliant legwork.

 

So if I can extract some of that data, the 38 men from Doberitz that the CWGC are responsible for are:-

 

1.     10986 Joseph Albert Layland, 1st Bn SWB died 30/01/1915

2.     7144 Thomas Vaughan, 1st Bn Cheshires died 10/11/1914

3.     10389 John Barker, Middlesex, died 26/01/1915

4.     7928 Joseph Hayman alias Hyndman, K O S B, died 07/11/1914

5.     607 William MacDonald, Seaforth Highlanders, died 03/10/1914

6.     10881 Frederick William Perman, 14th Hussars, died 16/09/1914

7.     9169 William Henry France, R.W.R., died 05/03/1915

8.     9323 Frederick Harper, Dorsets, died 24/02/1915

9.     6871 John Murray Baillie 1st Bn. Gordon Highlanders, died 04/02/1915

10. 7429 James Sharp 1st Bn. R.S.F., died 01/12/1914

11. SS/104526 Alfred James Matthews (or Mathews), Collingwood Bn. RND, died 24/11/1914

12. 4995 Levi James, Coldstream Guards, died 30/11/1914

13. 5989 Charles Bland, 15th (The Kings) Hussars, died 13/04/1915

14. 1919 Albert Franklin, Rifle Brigade, died 08/04/1915

15. 14289 Hubert Tracy or Tracey, 2nd Bn. Grenadier Guards, died 17/03/1915

16. 8897 Nicholas Patrick Mahoney, 1st Bn. SWB, died 05/07/1915

17. 9293 William McQuade, K O S B., died 27/06/1915

18. SS/105756 George Albert Sharman, Collingwood Bn. RND, died 13/05/1915

19. KW/797 Henry Maycock, Collingwood Bn. RND, died 08/10/1915

20. 3969 Edwin Boyall, 1st Bn. Rifle Brigade, died 17/09/1915

21. PO/5192/A William Malcolm, Collingwood Bn. RND, died 03/08/1915

22. 8176 Didax McLachlan, A&S Highlanders, died 07/08/1915 Died Rohrbeck https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/3377110/698/11639/

23. 7635 Joseph Parker 1st Bn. East Lancashire Regiment died 15/04/1917

24. 15/477 Reginald William Horton, West Yorks, died 12/11/1918

25. 7300 George Thorpe 2nd Bn. KOYLI, died 25/10/1917

26. PO/4905 Hugh Cormack, Collingwood Bn. RND, died 23/12/1917

27. 16414 Henry James Butt, 2nd Bn. Grenadier Guards, died 30/12/1917.

28. 8009 Robert James Alty 2nd Bn. South Lancashire Regt., died 24/06/1917

29. 9437 Ernest Henry Dadge, Rifle Brigade, died 01/04/1918

30. 917 Frederick Edward Milnes 12th Lancers, died 24/06/1918.

31. 69913 Walter Arthur Cane, RFA, died 04/11/1918

32. 8428 John Lawrence Varley, 2nd Bn. K.O.S.B.,  died 12/04/1917

33. 7557 Gilbert Short, 1st Bn West Yorks, died 26/11/1918

34. 37693 W. Arthur Garn, 1st Bn West Yorks, died 17/11/1918

35. 9809 William Mellish, 2nd Bn., West Ridings, died 12/12/1918

36. 5821 Bertram Shorto, 1st Bn Dorsets, died 09/12/1918

37. 51224 Joseph M McCormick, RFA, died 17/12/1918

38. 10412 James Richard Johnson, (CWGC as J R \ ICRC as Sergeant JOHN but associated report shows as Private JOHN – died Rohrbeck 24.3.15. John Barker is on the same page.) https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2656729/698/33239/

1st Bn. East Surrey Regiment died 24th March 1915.

 

That accounts for the occupants of graves:-

Plot 8

G 3 – 6

H 1 – 5

J 1 - 5

K 1 - 4

L 1  - 4

 

Plot 20

A 1 – 8

B 1 – 8

-        Without any gaps.

 

So I think that rules out the possibility that one of the 38 graves relocated was an unknown soldier.

 

Next line of enquiry is whether there were actually additional graves relocated  - both unknown soldiers and other nationalities.

 

Come back to that one after I’ve done the next lot of household chores.

 

Peter

[BarbaraG]

Really pleased it's come together......assume you're none the wiser in your original search.

Thanks for the R.N.D. updates.

Couple of pages (from the ICRC Archive) that confirm some of those who were buried (Beerdigt) at Doberitz - used Google Translate to help 

 

Think there are a couple of errors - John Johnstone, I think is James Richard Johnson (Grave Ref: XX. B. 8.)

 

 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, BarbaraG said:

Really pleased it's come together......assume you're none the wiser in your original search

 

Actually I think it really helps. I was already of the opinion that the man I'm interested in never got as far as Doberitz - I'd say 99.99% certain.

 

I suspect that the CWGC Archive doesn't have details of the men relocated from Doberitz as it predated their involvement, so the fact that we can identify the 38 men known to have been relocated with a fair degree of certainty increases my confidence in the belief that "my" guy didn't get to Doberitz to about 99.9999%

 

I've just been through the Grave Registration reports and there are no "Unknowns" buried in the same rows as the 38 graves and no other nationalities recorded as being buried there either. There are some names marginally at odds with your source information, (and which may have been corrected on the CWGC database entry anyway) but nothing that leaps out and makes me think "thats where 'my' guy was mis-identified". So confidence level is probably 99.99999%

 

Now if only I could find a newspaper report correcting the original statement that he died at Doberitz and I might get to 100%.

 

Thanks once again,

 

Peter