164 Anti-Aircraft Section RGA

[pflynn85]

Hello all - long time lurker, short time member

 

I understand from plenty of previous threads that information relating to AA sections, particularly later in the war, is scanty at best. I was wondering if anyone has seen anything about 164 AAS - formation date, locations, anything!

 

Thank you!

[HTSCF Fareham]

Definitely a tricky one. I managed to find 19th AA section (RFA) for my chap.

 

Only thing I can throw in the mix is this http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=wo95+anti-aircraft

[charlie962]

Welcome to the Forum PFlynn

 

There is an interesting medal in DNW Catalogue 2002.

 

This footnote Courtesy DNW:

 

Alfred Harold Pearce (who was known in the Army as Alfred John Pearce) was born in about 1887. As a young man he trained as a mechanic and became a chauffeur in private service before the Great War. During the war he joined the Royal Artillery, becoming a Corporal. He served at one stage in 164 Anti-Aircraft Section, Royal Garrison Artillery, one of the detachments that took part in the shooting down of the German Zeppelin L15, for which he received Wakefield’s Gold Medal.

These gold medals were awarded as the result of a bounty of £500 offered by Sir Charles Wakefield to the first gun’s crew to shoot down a Zeppelin on domestic soil. Due to the fact that a number of gun crews were involved in shooting down the L15, it was decided that the money would instead be spent on the production of gold medals to present to each individual member of the crews involved.

The Zeppelin L15 was severely damaged by anti-aircraft fire over London on the night of 31 March - 1 April 1916. The Zeppelin plunged into the sea a mile from the Kentish Knock Lightship shortly after midnight, and the 17 survivors were taken aboard H.M.S. Vulture, but not before being stripped naked by order of the ship’s Captain. Sold with original photograph of the recipient in civilian dress and some research.

 

Charlie

 

 

PS it seems that there was a difference of opinion as to which AA Battery had the winning shot.

 

Edit another example of Wakefield's Gold Medal:

 

Edit Edit    There are several threads on L15 on this Forum, eg here

What was the local name of the Section/Battery ? I suggest by looking for service records of some of the recipients of the medal one might stumble upon something ?

Edited 29 May , 2020 by charlie962

[HERITAGE PLUS]

The Section is listed on the ORBAT here:

 

http://www.314th.org/Nafziger-Collection-of-Orders-of-Battle/918BKWB.pdf

 

Dave

[charlie962]

So in 1918 part of Fifth Army AA- B Battery

which might suggest something here ?

 

 

With Free downloads at the moment from DNA (within limits) it is worth a look ?

Edited 29 May , 2020 by charlie962

[kevinrowlinson]

164th Anti-Aircraft Section left Southampton on the 1st September 1918, and disembarked at Le Havre on the 2nd. It joined B Anti-Aircraft Battery on the 5th September. The reference for the diary for B AA Bty is WO 95/545 - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/a570181bc6924a249def0deb02e33d1b

 

The diary does not go into much detail, but you should be able to find the general area they were working in. At the time of joining B AA Bty. it included 33, 70, 101, 142, 174, and 220 Anti Aircraft Sections.

 

Although there were some AA sub sections that were numbered that high later in the war attached to the AA Companies, I haven't as yet seen one for 164th Sub Section that may have helped in shooting down Zeppelin L15.  

 

Kevin

[pflynn85]

Thank you all very much for your input, this was really valuable. I reviewed the war diaries for B Battery, and there's actually a reference to the soldier I was researching on 12.12.18 in WO 95/545/6: "APPOINTMENTS: 138166 Gnr Cox W. R.G.A. Appointed Paid Lance Bombardier with effect from 3-10-18" - great!

 

5 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

164th Anti-Aircraft Section left Southampton on the 1st September 1918, and disembarked at Le Havre on the 2nd. It joined B Anti-Aircraft Battery on the 5th September.

 

Thank you very much Kevin - might I trouble you for the source for this, for my records? The war diary is generally silent on section-level movements.

 

Thanks again

Edited 29 May , 2020 by pflynn85

[HTSCF Fareham]

 

Courtesy of Ancestry

[kevinrowlinson]

13 hours ago, pflynn85 said:

Thank you very much Kevin - might I trouble you for the source for this, for my records? The war diary is generally silent on section-level movements.

 

 

The dates would have come from other gunners service records.

 

It's possible that 138166 Gnr. Cox originally enlisted in to the Hants. RGA (TF) and was given a TF number before being transferred/posted to the either a AA Company or to the AA Training depot, where he would have been renumbered from the "regular" series, before being posted to a AA Section.

 

Kevin

[pflynn85]

On 30/05/2020 at 04:01, HTSCF Fareham said:

Courtesy of Ancestry

 

Thanks for this - I also saw it on Ancestry. Gnr Cox's service records don't appear to have survived - I've poked around the names referenced in the war diaries and the service numbers around 138166 (for gunners in the same unit) and haven't been very successful in finding any other service records either!

Edited 18 June , 2020 by pflynn85

[HTSCF Fareham]

Gunner 138168 John Francis Bennett enlisted 04/08/1914

Gunner 138162 Augustus W White enlisted 10/05/1915

 

Still not any help.

[kevinrowlinson]

6 hours ago, pflynn85 said:

 

Thanks for this - I also saw it on Ancestry. Gnr Cox's service records don't appear to have survived - I've poked around the names referenced in the war diaries and the service numbers around 138166 (for gunners in the same unit) and haven't been very successful in finding any other service records either!

 

See my post #9, "It's possible that 138166 Gnr. Cox originally enlisted in to the Hants. RGA (TF) and was given a TF number before being transferred/posted to the either a AA Company or to the AA Training depot, where he would have been renumbered from the "regular" series, before being posted to a AA Section.

 

Also 

 

Given the paucity of service records I suspect he falls in the Hants. RGA (TF) band. Where did he live? If he was not from the Southampton area then he was probably transferred with other men from various TF Associations and branches of military in the next batch.

 

Kevin

[pflynn85]

Thank you Kevin - he was from Falmouth, Cornwall. So not outside the realm of possibility that he ended up in Southampton.
 

He was 17 in 1914, so another data point that suggests that 164 AAS wasn’t his first unit. 
 

Appreciate your help and expertise on this.

[kevinrowlinson]

1 hour ago, pflynn85 said:

he was from Falmouth, Cornwall.

 

 

In that case he was probably with the Cornwall RGA (TF) in the second block of transfers to the regulars. See record of 138176 Gnr. Richard Moore who probably transferred with him. Gnr. Moore's embodiment in the Cornwall RGA (TF) of 1911 is no indication of Gnr. Cox's.

 

Kevin

[pflynn85]

On 18/06/2020 at 11:04, kevinrowlinson said:

In that case he was probably with the Cornwall RGA (TF) in the second block of transfers to the regulars.

 

Hi Kevin - I think you're right. 138168 Gnr John Francis Bennett had joined Corning RGA (TF) in 1901, enlisted days after the start of the war in 1914, and was posted to 37 AA Coy 7.8.1916. 

 

In your experience, is it likely that the transfers into 1381XX all happened at the same time? I.e. is it likely Gnr Cox transferred from the TF in 1916 also?

 

Thanks again

[pflynn85]

7 hours ago, pflynn85 said:

 Corning

Cornwall

[kevinrowlinson]

17 hours ago, pflynn85 said:

is it likely that the transfers into 1381XX all happened at the same time?

 

The posting of TF gunners to regular units may have occurred over a number of months during 1916, but the renumbering probably didn't happen until the first couple of months of 1917. You can see this from the renumbering PDF I posted by looking at the regular enlistments, at the RGA depots, just before and after these transfers from the TF.

 

If you wish to look at other gunners service records who served with 164 AA Sect., and who would have also served with Gnr. Cox, then have a look at;

 

122300 (formally 1306 Kent RGA (TF)) Albert Jemmett

143916 Alfred Ernes Channon

 

If you're that interested I may have some more names who served with 164 AA Sect.

 

Kevin

 

[pflynn85]

Thanks Kevin, both of those service records were very interesting and gave a good idea of the route they took to get to the section. I think I've monopolised your time enough! Thank you very much for all of your help, its been invaluable.