My Great Uncle's Service Record

[roberttumas]

I am trying my best to decipher my Great Uncle Percy's service record with the RAF. There are two abbreviations attached to his Unit and the Unit he was transferred to that I just can't figure out. I have attached the record... I'm wondering if someone who is familiar with this type of record can elucidate some of the info on here? I am curious to see exactly where he served. He enlisted on November 13, 1915. He married in October of 1917 and then was moved to the reserves in 1919. He is listed as a driver, so I am assuming he never went over seas... But I can't figure out what unit he was actually in etc... Any help would be great! Record attached.

Thanks,

Rob

percy arthur martin.pdf

[quemerford]

From the 'authority' it looks like he went from Recruits Depot to the BEF on/around 5 February 1918 (authority date usually just indicates when it appeared in an order, rather than being an 'in post' date). Reverse of his card shows him in France from 31 March 1918 so it's more likely that he was at RD from joining the RFC on 1 February 1918 until arriving in the BEF in late March. Then he's recorded at Engine Repair Shops on 2 April 1918. Can't recall where ERS was (Candas or St Omer?) but I'm sure someone will come along and add that bit. Not sure why he doesn't have a return to Home Service or release date on the front sheet, but the reverse says he returned from France on 15 March 1919 and had a medical board (probably pre-demob) in April. 

 

Seems strange too that he was a Driver rather than the blacksmith he'd been in civilian life.

[rksimpson]

Hi

 

BEF is - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_I)

ERS or ER5 I have no idea, sorry air force is not my area.

Googling I found this - 

ERD/ERS

Engine Repair Depot/Shops ('X' ERS in Egypt) in - http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/abbreviations.html

 

regards

Robert

[roberttumas]

Thanks so much for the info! I didn't realize the card had a back... I see that he was also in France in 1916... How do I figure out where he was then? That would be previous to transferring to the RAF I think. 

[quemerford]

There is a medal card for a number at the National Archives: file WO 372/13/148771. It's free to download if you register. That one reference covers three 'Percy A' and 'Percival A' Martins; don't bother with what looks like a different file ending -772 as it contains the same info. 

 

Hopefully you have enough info to work out which one he is!

 

Failing that, look into RAMC and RE records to see which one he is or isn't. Good luck!

[rksimpson]

10 hours ago, roberttumas said:

Thanks so much for the info! I didn't realize the card had a back... I see that he was also in France in 1916... How do I figure out where he was then? That would be previous to transferring to the RAF I think. 

HI

What does the previous military service say, number 4 on the left hand side, too small for me to read?

 

regards

 

Robert

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, rksimpson said:

What does the previous military service say, number 4 on the left hand side, too small for me to read?

 

4th Bedfordshire Regiment

 

Looking at LLT entry the 4th Beds landed Le Havre 25/7/16 yet Percy has , on his RAF record, France 11/6/16-28/10/16 suggesting he went to France with another Bn ?

Edited 26 May , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

The RAF record tells us he married in 1917. In theory he was still with the Bedfordshires. If you get a copy of his Marriage Cert it might just (?) give us his service number or Bn number.

 

Charlie

 

PS he died 1926 and there is at least one tree on Ancestry with some detail . If not yours perhaps worth contacting tree owners ?

Edited 26 May , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Who is this P A Martin living at the same address as Percy's wife ?

 

image from National Roll Great War  courtesy FindmyPast

 

an odd entry to find someone volunteering Nov 1915 and gaining entitlement to 14/15 Star ? I couldn't see such a man on Medal Rolls.

 

Percy Arthur did indeed enlist November 1915 and was discharged April 1919 having returned from France March 1919 but with RAF!  Percy was not entitled to 14/15 Star.  Percy could have been wounded Oct 1916 causing his return to UK  but then he next went out 1918 with RAF.

 

Needs careful reflection ? Was Percy having a bit of fun ?

 

Charlie

 

Edited 26 May , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Whilst awaiting Rob's response, I find the marriage banns online where Percy is shown as 'batchelor of the Parish of Chelsea'. He wasn't  implying GG at this time ? RAF record says his height 5'9" which was within Guards limits 1918. Still need to see the marriage cert.

 

Charlie

Edited 27 May , 2020 by charlie962

[roberttumas]

Hi All thanks for all this info and helping me out! Sorry for the late response. 

Ok, so many questions! On his Marriage Cert which I have (attached) he lists himself as a Private in the Grenadier Guards! And given all the other info on his service record, I too thought he might have listed that as a little tongue in cheek. Maybe trying to impress a father in law? He married Mary Kate Franklin who was 16 at the time in 1917 after spending that first 6 months or so in France. So that newspaper clipping must be incorrect. I mean unless he married her when he came home for a time wounded?

I am attaching what I have for the marriage cert. This was acquired by my grandfather in '89 so it's a hand copied duplicate, not the original. 

And I think the tree on ancestry is me, I haven't found him on any others or at least that had new info.

 

So he enlisted in November 13, 1915 - possibly in 4th Bedfordshire Rgt - first tour from June to October 1916 - marries oct 1917 listing himself as a Pvt Grenadier Guards - then goes back from march '18 to march '19 in the RAF?

 

Also attaching the only picture I have of him. Thanks all again!

I also just ordered his death cert from the Hertfordshire records but that will take weeks to arrive.

[roberttumas]

Also, if that banns says Chelsea I don't think it's the right one. I'm pretty sure he was working at the smithy on Watford St. in St. Albans (or Chiswell Green, still figuring out how English towns work) attached to the Three Hammers which they owned from 1800s to 1929, though they owned the smithy for much longer, maybe 1600.

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, roberttumas said:

if that banns says Chelsea I don't think it's the right one

It is the right one because his wife-to-be has her name also on the banns. Chelsea is home of Guards Depot of course. So I'm assuming he was impressing the father in law ! Very interesting to see the Marriage Cert. Oh! what a tangled web ........

 

Apart from the unit GG and the claim to 14/15 Star I suspect the movements - Somme, wounding, sickness and repatriation, return to France are all probably true! What we need to find is his name and number on an official Daily Casualty List (or perhaps local papers) . His wife came from Frogmore which is just down the road from Colney Street so father in law might see local paper ?

 

We do have some loose ends still:

--Although RAF record says prev service 4th Beds, as I noted above he seems to have gone to France before they did.

-- If he was wounded then mater had enteritis causing his return home, this can often lead to a change of unit. Could simply be the Bedfordshire Depot or could be something else before he joined RFC/RAF.  Perhaps even a temporary attachment at the Guard Depot which is the basis of this tale ?

 

Keep an open mind however.

 

Charlie

 

PS  Thanks for sharing photo. It shows a Lance Corporal and that Capbadge is probably, to me, Bedfordshire Regiment (although Army Service Corps is not dissimilar in outline). But it is definitely not Grenadier Guards.

 

@FROGSMILE is good on these badges !

 

 

Edited 28 May , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, roberttumas said:

So that newspaper clipping must be incorrect. I mean unless he married her when he came home for a time wounded?

The newspaper clipping comes from a book called National Roll of the Great War, the volume for Bedfordshire, which was a commercial production and was based on information provided by the soldier or his family. Perhaps his family provided the details without him being aware- hoist by his own petard. Yes he married Mary Kate when he was recovering in England. Timing is ok. Note I think it was the Enteritis that forced his repatriation rather than the wounding.

 

Charlie

[roberttumas]

I totally see that. That really makes sense. Perhaps he was attached to the GG for a brief time maybe because of his repair skills (the family lore is that they were all absolute whizzes with anything mechanical and could fix anything). So if that picture shows a Lance Corporal, do you think that is actually him? 

 

Also, another little interesting tid bit. Percy's son Arthur born Feb 1920 was KIA in WW2 in 1944 on a minesweeper off the coast of Belgium in the near Knokke and the Scheldt Estuary. They had previous swept mines prior to the invasion at Sword Beach. He was a signalman. After tracking down his death record on Ancenstry I found this fantastic website: http://www.wildfire3.com/byms-2252.html which has his picture and his mention in the Despatches. He was 24 when he got hit by German shore fire.

 

Where did you find the banns I don't think I have that. Thanks for your help!

Rob

[charlie962]

12 minutes ago, roberttumas said:

Where did you find the banns I don't think I have that. Thanks for your help!

Here on FindmyPast