HMAT Karoo

[Frederick]

Hi guys,

Like many others I am working on Family History. I am hoping someone will be able to tell me if HMAT Karoo (might be Karroo) sailed from Alexandria, Egypt, to Lemnos or Gallipoli departing around 30/8/1915 and arriving around 7/9/1915, and which Australian troops she carried on that voyage

Or alternatively can you suggest from where I can source this information?

Thanks,

Fred

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

Its name was Troopship HMAT Karroo (A10)

A picture of it in 1916 is in here

https://discoverytrailscomau.wordpress.com/18-1-5-hmat-australian-ships-during-ww1/

 

Transport Duties Dardanelles Operations 1915 - 1916

 

Also its mentioned in the very useful book here, with careful eyes looking in each convoy you will spot where its departing from in Australia  

Melbourne and Sydney seem to be mentioned a few time

No destinations though

https://issuu.com/anmmuseum/docs/sea_transport_of_the_aif

 

John

Edited 23 May , 2020 by johnmelling1979

[Frederick]

Thanks for your help John. If the SS Karroo did leave from Alexandria on around that date, it will provide the missing piece to an intriguing story regarding my uncle that I will be happy to share with you later.

[David26]

Fred,

 

the file WO25/3542 would likely answer your question.  It contains lists of ships which sailed from 'abroad' to 'abroad' (where 'abroad' means not the UK) for the third quarter of 1915.  Sadly it has not been digitised and can only be examined by visiting The National Archives in Kew which is of course shut at the moment due to COVID19.

 

It may not help, but the Karroo had arrived in Alexandria on 18 July 1915, having sailed from Devonport in the UK on 5 July 1915. 

 

Good luck in your hunt,

 

David.

[Frederick]

David , thanks for your input. The "minor" difficulty there is that I live in Melbourne, Australia, and flights are a tad hard to get right now!

The reason for my inquiry (which might enthuse other researchers) is that I think my uncle might have jumped on a troopship at Alexandria out of sheer boredom on or about 30th August 1915 to get to the front at Gallipoli. At least that is what dates on his letters suggest.

[David26]

Fred,

 

that certainly makes things a little trickier!  But you can commission either TNA or a private researcher to look this up for you once TNA re-opens.  The TNA site tells you how to ask them to do it.  It is though apparently usually cheaper to get a private researcher to do this.  You can find members of the Forum who are willing to recommend someone by searching for "researcher" on the Forum.

 

The embarkation returns name officers and give their regiments, but just give numbers of other ranks for each unit, so depending on your uncle's rank (or the story he spun the transportation officer at Alexandria) you might just be able to confirm the family story. 

 

There are also disembarkation returns in the WO25 series, and the one for travel "between stations abroad" for the second half of 1915 is WO25/3703.  I'm afraid I've never examined these so couldn't comment on what they contain.

 

All the best,

 

David

[Frederick]

David, a little more detail in order to explain my strange requests about troopship names . My uncle looked after horses in a transport ship called (possibly) “Indian” off the coast of Gallipoli for three weeks from 26/4/15, then returned to Alexandria mid May. From his letters, he was bored witless after several months there. His last letter from there was dated 20^th August when he spoke of there being a chance he could join the infantry. His next letter was from Gallipoli “in the trenches” and dated 9^th September. Later that month on 21^st September, a Court of Inquiry in Gallipoli found him guilty of being awol for 8 days from 31/8 to 7/9 and classified him as being a Deserter  but his punishment was merely forfeiture of pay and FP2. But how did he get to Gallipoli? We suspect he somehow got on to the Karroo which he mentions in his 9/9 letter as being in Mudros when he was there too. Or maybe he got on the Southland which carried the 21^st Infantry (departing on the right date), and which was torpedoed en route, with surviving men being transferred to the Partridge, and arrived in Gallipoli on 7/9.

 

So this might just be one of those (what I believe to be unusual) cases of a soldier “deserting to the front”. I would love to prove it correct, as you will understand !

 

Fred

 

[David26]

Fred,

 

yes, I can fully understand what you're trying to do.  Proving it may never be possible, but, as a I say, what you can do is give a researcher all of the details you want them to look for (range of dates of departures from Alexandria bound for Gallipoli, Lemnos or Imbros and range of dates for arrivals) and ask them to photograph every relevant page for you.  (TNA permits photographing documents for personal research purposes).   You could also specify your uncle's unit in case they spot a ship with one or more men from his unit aboard, though I'd guess that if he was 'deserting to the front' that he might have had to be rather more clandestine about who he was or how he got aboard.

 

I would offer to do this for you next time I visit TNA, but my current assumption is that that's unlikely to be this calendar year, I'm afraid.

 

David.

[Frederick]

Thanks for your replies to my posting David, it is hugely appreciated. I take on board your advice about a private researcher at TNA, and if you are willing to do that for me, I would certainly not look elsewhere. It appears that TNA only closed on 13 May (surprising in itself given how much more conservative we have been here in Australia with libraries closed since late March) and they are talking about being closed until the end of June. So perhaps the timeline may be shorter than we estimated. My book is most unlikely to be ready for the publisher before then, and Len's small story is such an interesting part of it that I am prepared to wait and see in regard to TNA.

Cheers,

Fred

[Frederick]

Hi again David and others who tried to assist me in my inquiries a few months back re the movements of the transport ship "Karroo". I have had a guy searching files for me at the Aust. War Memorial without success. There seems to be a gap in records regarding the "Karroo" movements around the late August 1915 period in which I am interested. But does anyone have any knowledge about what another troopship, the HMAT A74  "Beltana" was doing in that last week of August/first week of September, 1915? And did she carry both British and Australian troops?

Fred

[David26]

Hi again Fred. 

 

Good to hear from you.  I'm afraid I don't have any information about the 'Beltana'.  There seem quite a few references to it on various sites - though they give the pennant number as A72 - which might help?  There might also again be information in the WO25 series at Kew, but with the current restrictions,  it will probably be several months sadly before I am able to get back there.  

 

All the best,

 

David.

[terryb95]

Have you had a look at the National Archives Australia for his Service record

[terryb95]

Try the Australian War Memorial They hold The Troopships and cargo Carrier movement cards for 1914-1918 They have on their web page a didital down load for 1916 only

[Jeff Pickerd]

Frederick,

The HMAT Karroo A10 was renumbered for the landing fleet of the ANZAC forces, it’s new number was A19.

Along with the transport ships Indian A16 and Cardiganshire A18 they were all vessels carrying the Australian Field Artillery to support the landing.

It would seem your man was allotted to taking care of the Artillery gun horses on board the Karroo, as there were no suitable sites on shore for the gun horses and wagons to operate, with the few teams landed being sent back to their ships.

I would suggest that you go through the artillery war diaries digitally available from the AWM to see if there is any further useful information.

The HMAT Beltane was A72. Have not had a chance as yet to see if I can find any information on its movements during August 1915.

 

Jeff

[Frederick]

Good morning Jeff, David, and others,

This is just about my "last throw at the stumps" in trying to find information on the Beltana and the Karroo voyages in late August/early September 1915, and whether either ship moved British troops from Alexandra to Lemnos. Searches at the Aust. National Archives and the Aust. War memorial have been fruitless for the couple of weeks in question, even though I believe both ships were in the Mediterranean. The only remaining option seems to be the National Archives at Kew, A bit difficult with me being in Melbourne! Any comments on that idea?

Fred

[alantwo]

Hello Fred

 

The Headquarters 1st Australian Field Artillery Brigade War Diary indicates the HT Indian departed Alexandria on 9th April and arrived at Mudros on 11th April with the 1st AFA Brigade Headquarters, 2nd Battery AFA and 1st AFA Brigade Ammunition Column. It departed for Gaba Tepe on 25th April, which is confirmed by the Embarkation Officer (Mudros) War Diary. Other Batteries from the Brigade were on board HT Atlantian and HT Cardiganshire. One Section of 2nd Battery was towed to shore from HT Indian but returned to the ship. HT Indian proceeded to Xeros Bay on 27th and arrived back at Gaba Tepe on 30th.

 

Karroo began embarking 2nd AFAB, 4th and 5th Batteries, along with 8th Battery at Alexandria on 9th April and arrived at Mudros on 12th April. It left the port on 23rd April and anchored outside, departing for Anzac Cove on 25th. A portion of the Headquarters and 1 Sub-section of the 4th Battery with 12 horses, one gun and two wagons were landed at Anzac Cove at 3.30pm. Four more guns of 4th and 5th Batteries were landed on 26th April, (Reference 2nd AFAB Brigade War Diary).

 

For information the Karroo is mentioned in the remarks column of the 1st AFA Brigade War Diary on 6th April at Mudros.

 

From the Embarkation Officer (Mudros) War Diary, the Beltana arrived at Mudros harbour on Tuesday 31st August with Artillery H.Q., 52nd Division, detachment 1/16th Royal Scots, Details A.F.A. and reinforcements 29th Division. It sailed for Alexandria on 6th September after which it returned to Australia via The Cape. The Beltana is mentioned as being in the harbour on 5th September in the Headquarters 54th Brigade RFA War Diary.

 

Again, from the Embarkation Officer (Mudros) War Diary, the Karroo, also spelt in the diary as Karoo, Karoa and Karroa, arrived at Mudros on 3rd September with details of 11th, 13th, 29th, 42nd, 2nd Mounted and Royal Naval Divisions, reinforcements A & N.Z. Corps. The Karoa sailed for Malta on 4th September.

 

The TNA file WO25/3703 mentioned above is huge. It contains returns for ships and the units embarking on board. and also has some named officers although I haven’t as yet transcribed them; I have partially photographed the file but only have images for December, some 202 pages.

 

I hope that helps and apologies in advance for any mistakes.

Alan

Edited 19 September , 2020 by alantwo

[Guest]

the Karoo was originally meant to sail to Salonkia (Thessalonki), to rendevous with the main fleet bound for gallipoli. she then sailed to cape helles, offloaded the troops (either the australian light horse or the 2/4 battalion of the Royal Fusiliers) and remained on station, until the evacuation occured. at least that's what i've managed to piece together, based on sets of papers my late grandfather posessed (my great grandfather was a midshipman on the Karoo. he made a scrapbook for his parents, that was passed down to my father).

[Frederick]

Hi Dominic,

Many thanks for responding to my post re the Karoo from a fair while ago. My uncle Len Rial had contact with the wireless operator on the Karoo when it was docked at Lemnos. From his letters, I know that this would have been between 20th August and 8th September in 1915. But I have never been able to establish how my uncle got to Lemnos and that is what I am trying to clarify. I know a group of 14 Aussie soldiers stowed away from Alexandra to Gallipoli via Lemnos on one or more British troops ships from Alexandra in that period. He may have been one of them . No records for stowaways of course! Or he might have got there on the Karoo, which is why I have been trying to trace that ship's movements. Do you have any dates for the Karoo voyages you mentioned in your email?

[Guest]

sadly i don't. the scrapbook doesn't have any dates (possibly due to wartime censorship. the only date in the book was attached to a photo taken on christmas day in 1915). there are a lot of photos of the ship and her crew as well as a lot of entries about life onboard the ship and the adventures the crew had (there's a hilalrious entry about how they were given a field gun for use against submarines. but the blasted thing kept nearly rolling over the side, so they had to lash it down to the point that they couldn't use it). i did photograph the book's pages a few years back (when my grandfather was still alive). i've posted a couple of the pages (with photos of my great grandfather alongside some of the crew). i'll try and see if there are any photos of the troops they were transporting (by what i remember there are quite a few). who knows. maybe your uncle was inadvertantly photographed by my great grandfather.

Edited 4 October , 2021 by Guest
needed to upload another photo

[Jeff Pickerd]

Frederick,

Your question as to the sailing date of A 19 “Karroo” from Alexandria in August has had me intrigued as to the possible embarkation date. From my records I have only two mentions of “Karroo” as a vessel of the sick convoy from Anzac, sailing from Anzac Cove on Friday, 13/8/15 and arriving at Malta on Thursday, 19/8/15, to disembark wounded and sick. Presumably the ship would have then embarked for Egypt, but seeing as no one has been able to supply any information as to a destination, or an arrival and departure date for Alexandria, that is speculation on my part. If the voyage time from Malta to Egypt was another three to five days that would make an Alexandria sailing date from the 29th August plausible.

I have turned to the war diaries for the 1st Australian Field Artillery Brigade Ammunition Column and the 1st Australian Field Artillery Brigade to see if they could shed any light upon this mystery, and they in turn have led to an investigation of service records from the Australian National Archives. The 1st F.A. Bde Ammunition Column war diary for the 22/6/15 has one man AWOL, Gnr COBB F. No. 523, stowed away on A 29 “Seang Bee” for Gallipoli. His service record gives his absent without leave as 21/6/15 to 25/6/15, having loss of 5 days pay on the 5/7/15, Alexandria. The 1st A.F.A. Bde war diary has the entry, ‘1 gunner from B.A.C. arrived and posted to B.H.Q.’ at Cape Helles.  He was transferred to 1st F.A. Bde Details from hospital in Cairo, 7/8/15, so presumably he had been returned to Egypt sick at the beginning of August, but there are no details of that in the record. On the 16/8/15 at Zaheriah he is attached to the 1st F.A. Bde Headquarters at Cape Helles, embarking the next day from Alexandria to the M.E.F. Gallipoli. The diary lists a further 27 men absent without leave between the 3/8/15 to 30/8/15.

Gnr Forbes Cobb establishes that men arriving at Cape Helles, A.W.O.L, over the next month were taken on strength of the 1st A.F.A. Bde at Cape Helles as they landed, which has answered one of my questions as to how men who went to Gallipoli absent without leave, having no record of just where they were for a substantial period of time, could have survived without being attached to a unit for rationing. 

This brings me back to the case of your Great Uncle, Driver Lenard Alexander RIAL No. 542 who is reported as absent without leave in the 1st F.A. Bde Ammunition Column war diary on the 29th August along with two other men, No. 538 Dvr. B. Cartwright, and No. 686 J. H. Dawes, and from their service records all being AWOL from the 03/8/15 to 7/9/15, Court of Inquiry 21/9/15. Here we find the only reference to the sinking of the Transport ship “Southland”, with a letter written by T. E. Whitton No. 533 giving information as to the death by drowning of Driver Cartwright from the “Southland” on the 2nd September. Whitton also stated that Cartwright was to leave with him on the 27th August on board the “Beltana” but was posted to picket duty and unable to get away, and would try and get on the next vessel heading for Gallipoli, but did not leave until the reported AWOL date of the 29th.

The service records of all 13 men (minus Druitt No. 3147 & Cartwright) who absconded from the 27/8/15 to 30/8/15 were taken on strength of the 3rd A.F.A. Battery at Cape Helles as they arrived.

Afraid this does not tell you on what vessel your great uncle sailed on to Gallipoli, but does eliminate the “Beltana”, and the raises the possibility that he may have been onboard the “Southland”.

Jeff

[frev]

55 minutes ago, Jeff Pickerd said:

Afraid this does not tell you on what vessel your great uncle sailed on to Gallipoli, but does eliminate the “Beltana”, and the raises the possibility that he may have been onboard the “Southland”.

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff

Pity you had to spend so much time on this - we did actually come to this conclusion last year!  See my comment posted on the 25th October 2020 at the bottom of the Southland story:

Cheers, Frev

[Frederick]

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your detailed comments on the HMAT Karoo. My Family History book was published last January, including the Chapter on my uncles Len and Owen who both died in France during the Great War. Both you and I have chased down similar rabbit holes - NAA, AWM, Unit diaries, etc. I would like to share that chapter with you but I am unsure how to do it. One option is just to try to attach it to this website/message area, but it is so large it may not transmit. I see you live not far away so I could possibly loan you a copy of the book. Let me know what you think. My email address is below.

Cheers,

Fred 

[Michelle Young]

Fred, I have removed the email address from your post. Spammers visit and harvest information like this. Please use personal messages to communicate with Jeff.

Michelle 

 

[Frederick]

Ok, point taken, thanks.

[Jeff Pickerd]

Thanks Frederick and Frev,

Hadn’t thought to check your blog Frev, but it has been no trouble at all doing the research of the expansion of named deserters and transport ships for August, the details had me intrigued as to what the actual story was behind the desertion of Rial and the others.

Frederick, I would indeed be most interested to see your book, but in these times of Covid lock down it will be most difficult to physically see it, I shall just have to wait until the restrictions are lifted. It is a shame that I had not done any research on the transport vessels sailing from Alexandria during August 1915 back before you had finalised your book.

So now to throw another spanner in the works! From what I have been able to find there were the following transports that sailed from the 16^th August: -

5^th Inf. Bde. HQ , 17^th & 18^th Inf. Bn’s onboard the “Alauna”, Alex 16/8/15, Lemnos 20/8/15. The 18^th Bn. diary for 20^th August has entry: “18^th & 19^th Batt- moved away at sundown in “Osmaniah” (Egyptian Mail Boat our transport from Lemnos to Anzac) We go tomorrow – very dirty ship, flies & filth everywhere, 7 stowaways on board.”

19^th & 20^th Inf. Bn’s onboard the “Saturnia”, Alex 16/8/15, Lemnos 20/8/15. But these sailing dates are too early in August for any of the later absconders to stowaway on.

 “Beltana’ on the 27/8/15 is established as one of vessels that AWOL men from the 27^th August were on. 

Departing Alex 30^th August, these four transports would appear to be the only vessels having Australian personnel aboard sailing for Gallipoli that the deserters from 28^th to 30^th August could have embarked upon: -

21^st Inf. Bn. onboard the “Southland”, Alex 30/8/15. Lemnos 2/9/15.

22^nd In.f Bn. Onboard the “Scotian”, Alex 30/8/15. Lemnos, 2/9/15.

23^rd Inf. Bn. Onboard the “Haverland”, Alex 30/8/15. Lemnos, 2/9/15.

24^th Inf. Bn. Onboard the “Nile”, Alex 30/8/15. Lemnos, 2/9/25.

Departing Alex 4^th / 5^th September. These two transports are the possibilities if some of the men did not get away on the 30^th.

7^th Inf. Bde. H.Q. 25^th & 26^th Inf. Bn’s. onboard the “Minnewaska”, Alex 4/9/15, sailed dawn 5/9/15. Lemnos 7/9/15.

27^th & 28^th Inf Bn’s. onboard “Sarnia’, Alex 4/9/15, Lemnos 9 pm. 6/9/15.

As of date I have still not been able to find any reference of A 19 “Karroo” sailing from Alexandria during the month of August, but one of the many other Australian unit war diaries may hold that information, if it did indeed depart Alex. The Ship may well have transported British troops to Gallipoli, but I find it difficult to see how Australians would have remained undetected before sailing from Alexandria.

Jeff