What does vermißt mean?

[GregO]

Researching German casualties at Pozieres I have found in the term "vermißt" and a name in the lists at the end of the regiment history of RIR.77. Does this mean "missing", as in POW, or "missing" as in no trace? The numbers seem to match POWs, but I wanted to be sure.

 

[charlie2]

Vermißt = missing. As the book is post war one must assume no trace was found of him. Have you checked the casualty and missing lists

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Verlustlisten_Erster_Weltkrieg/Projekt

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Verlustlisten_Erster_Weltkrieg/Vermisstenliste

 

Charlie

[GregO]

Thanks Charlie, that was where I got them from. 59 of the 10. Kompanie RIR 77 were "vermißt" 23.7.16 at Pozieres. The Australian 1st battalion claimed to have captured "60 prisoners" on their front. Just wanted to check they hadn't lost 59 missing (no trace ever) and another 60 taken as prisoners.....if that makes sense.....

 

[phil andrade]

With some diffidence, I would suggest that the missing included prisoners and those whose fate could not be accounted for, which, by and large, implied death.

 

In the sanitatsbericht , it’s stated that, overall, at least half of the category of missing were prisoners.  Of course, in some actions the majority were killed ; whilst in others, they were preponderantly prisoners .

 

I note that the compilation of casualties at Verdun from 21st February to 10th September 1916 posts 26,739 as missing, which is a far greater number than the prisoners claimed by the French during that period there....it’s reasonable to assume that the great majority of these men had been killed.

 

In the 1916 Battle of the Somme, on the other hand, the same source enumerates 85,683 as missing.....and it’s obvious, judging by the claim of prisoners captured by the Allies, that these accounted for the preponderance of that number.

 

I wonder if the Regimental  Histories are different from the sanitatsbericht in how the missing are dealt with.

 

Editing here : A clue to this might be apparent in the ratio of wounded to killed.  If the proportion of killed is high compared with that of the wounded, then it’s more likely that the men posted as missing are prisoners. That Verdun tabulation from the santitatsbericht, for example, shows a ratio of one killed to every 5.8 wounded - a low proportion of confirmed killed - and,  in this case, I reckon the majority of the missing are dead, since relatively few prisoners were taken by the French at Verdun until October to December 1916, after the close off date of 10th September .  Now take a look at the Somme figures : here we have a ratio of 4.7 wounded to every one confirmed killed....the relatively high proportion of killed suggesting that the missing have, in a greater proportion, been taken prisoner. The died from wounds are not included in these returns, by the way.  If your Pozieres example shows a high ratio of killed to wounded, then I would interpret that as implying that the missing were prisoners , which does indeed conform to the report of captives made by the Australian unit engaged. 

 

Phil

Edited 28 May , 2020 by phil andrade

[charlie2]

The Verlustlisten for 15.08.1916, which as far as I can tell records the casualties for 23.07.1916, records 119 soldiers for RIR 77 as missing. The Vermisstenliste record 49 still missing post war. Which to me suggests that about 60 were taken prisoner and a further 59 were never accounted for. These figures are for the whole regiment, I doubt very much the 60 PoWs taken by the Australian 1st Bn were recorded by the Australians by their company.
 

Charlie

Edited 28 May , 2020 by charlie2
Numbers corrected after recount

[phil andrade]

3 hours ago, charlie2 said:

, I doubt very much the 60 PoWs taken by the Australian 1st Bn were recorded by the Australians by their company.
 

Charlie

 

 

 

Charlie2,

 Not following you here : are you saying that the 60 prisoners were not recorded by dint of which company they belonged to, but as an overall catch from the entire regiment ?

 

It's great to see that you can consult this primal source.  Does it give a breakdown of killed, wounded and missing ?  I would be interested to see how the three categories stack up in ratio to each other.

 

Phil

[charlie2]

1 hour ago, phil andrade said:

 

Charlie2,

 Not following you here : are you saying that the 60 prisoners were not recorded by dint of which company they belonged to, but as an overall catch from the entire regiment ?

 

It's great to see that you can consult this primal source.  Does it give a breakdown of killed, wounded and missing ?  I would be interested to see how the three categories stack up in ratio to each other.

 

Phil

Phil

The German list in this case lists the casualties by their Company. What I meant was, sorry if it is not clear, that the Australians would not have recorded which company the prisoners belonged to, so the Australian figures are for the whole of the German regiment rather than just for No. 10 Company or which ever company they belonged to.

 

The list which I have posted only records killed, wounded or missing, the PoWs would be listed in a later casualty list after the „British“ had informed the Red Cross, who would in turn pass the information on to the German authorities.
 

I‘ll tot the numbers up later on.

 

Charlie

[charlie2]

3 hours ago, phil andrade said:

I would be interested to see how the three categories stack up in ratio to each other.

 

Phil

5 Coy - 74 Wounded, 8 KiA

6 Coy - 63 Wounded, 10 KiA, 2 Missing

7 Coy - 59 Wounded, 9 KiA, 5 Missing

8 Coy - 43 Wounded, 10 KiA, 21 Missing

9 Coy - 58 Wounded, 22 KiA, 1 Missing

10 Coy - 48 Wounded, 12 KiA, 84 Missing

11 Coy - 89 Wounded, 27 KiA, 4 Missing

12 Coy - 47 Wounded, 13 KiA, 2 Missing

 

Totals 481 Wounded, 111 KiA, 119 Missing. 

 

Charlie

 

[phil andrade]

1 hour ago, charlie2 said:

5 Coy - 74 Wounded, 8 KiA

6 Coy - 63 Wounded, 10 KiA, 2 Missing

7 Coy - 59 Wounded, 9 KiA, 5 Missing

8 Coy - 43 Wounded, 10 KiA, 21 Missing

9 Coy - 58 Wounded, 22 KiA, 1 Missing

10 Coy - 48 Wounded, 12 KiA, 84 Missing

11 Coy - 89 Wounded, 27 KiA, 4 Missing

12 Coy - 47 Wounded, 13 KiA, 2 Missing

 

Totals 481 Wounded, 111 KiA, 119 Missing. 

 

Charlie

 

 

Many thanks, Charlie2.

 

This helps to clarify things.

 

GregO alludes 10 Coy posting 59 as missing, yet the list above shows 84.

 

It's quite a challenge.

 

I want to find out if KiA includes mortally wounded.

 

If we allow for the 59 unaccounted for missing being dead, it yields a notional 170 killed and 481 wounded....if we then assume that the 481 wounded include a significant number who were to die after evacuation, then the fatality might be in the order of 200 or more : approaching double the original return of confirmed killed.

 

Phil

[GregO]

Wow, that is a great primary source of data! Thanks Phil.

One thing I can say is that the 60 prisoners taken by the 1st Bn we can assume are from the 10. Kompanie. On their left is the 6./27 and on their right the 4./157. The 11./157 is next to the 6./27 but they largely repel the attack on that front, besides they would have been captured by the 11th Bn.

The IR157 has almost nothing in its regimental history (63 pages) and no lists and would very much like to know what happened to the both them and the 6./27.

 

I will have a crack at reconciling what actually went on 22/23rd July in those three units. I can see now the casualty lists and how to download them.

Is there any indexing to go with this or do I have to download it all and check carefully every page to find the different units?

 

[phil andrade]

GregO,

 

It’s charlie2 who deserves credit for presenting the data.

 

I find the challenge and interest in seeking the right way to interpret them.

 

The casualty debate will always rage, especially in regard to the Somme, and the examples that you and GregO have submitted give us useful bases for extrapolation .

 

Phil

Edited 29 May , 2020 by phil andrade

[charlie2]

---

11 hours ago, phil andrade said:

I want to find out if KiA includes mortally wounded

Phil 

There are 13 DoW among the 481 I listed as wounded. 84 are recorded as missing but what has to be born in mind this is only an initial list, the 60 PoWs need to be subtracted from this total. 49 are recorded post war as still missing which leaves 10 who‘s fate we are missing. Were they stragglers or wounded that turned up too late for that particular casualty list? To determine the amount that DoW later would be near impossible as the details used to record the casualties changed in late 1916 and were no longer listed by regiment.

9 hours ago, GregO said:

Is there any indexing to go with this or do I have to download it all and check carefully every page to find the different units?

Greg 

There is no index to the casualty lists. I suggest you query the Vermisstenliste as per the example attached and then search for the names in the Verlustlisten. The majority, if not all, will be found in one list, this will be the list you will need.

The Regimental history of IR 27 is available on line if you haven‘t already found it.

http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/sammlungen/sammlungsliste/werksansicht/?no_cache=1&tx_dlf[id]=15488&tx_dlf

---

=1&tx_dlf[double]=0&cHash=3c018f299abb53ac581b6a726b49c928

Charlie

[phil andrade]

charlie2,

 

Thanks for going to this trouble.

 

Thirteen’s a small number for died from wounds, isn’t it ?

 

Fewer than three per cent.  British counterparts were in the order of eight per cent, or more.

 

As you say, more might have died later....but it certainly indicates the extent to which German returns did include the lightly wounded : that puts the Edmonds argument where it belongs.

 

As to PoWs, that, too, throws light on how far claims can be justified by official returns.

 

Phil

[charlie2]

Phil

The Germans recorded three classes of wounded - lightly wounded and treated at unit level, lightly wounded and severely wounded.

Charlie

[GregO]

Thanks guys, you have opened up a wonderful line of research. I was specifically looking at the following Kompanies 4./157IR, 10./77RIR and 6./27IR whose positions were overrun 23rd Jul 1916. They list vermist as 78, 85 and 15 respectively in the casualty list (cross reference names of gefallen from regimental histories) and 28, 42 and 0 as still missing after the war. So a healthy percentage of vermist have been killed.

In this case when you add the likely killed from the vermist list, the killed to wounded ratio starts getting above 1, suggests perhaps bombs rolled down dugouts or a direct hit by a shell, rather than a hard fought tussle. Leicht wounds were 22, 42 and 22 resp.

Which was what I was expecting to see.

It is an excellent way of analysing the German side of any battle. Thanks for the assistance.

[AOK4]

Some people that were killed outright but that were not immediately recorded as such, would also be considered "vermißt". Reasons: buried immediately, no officer around to record the death of the individual, etc. Afterwards (until some time after the war), people were questioned about the fate of their fellow soldiers and only after a statement under oath, the status was changed. All this would then be noted in the Kriegsstammrollen and Kriegsranglisten.

I notice in the Ehrentafel of the regimental history that quite a few men from 23 July 1916 were "vermißt und für tot erklärt", meaning that they were legally declared as deceased on that day. This was of course important for the relatives (inheritance, possibility to remaary of the widow etc). This was only done if there was a statement under oath. Some have the remark "Ermittlungen ergebnislos", investigations unsuccessful.

The regimental history fives the following information about the 10th company on 23 July 1916: "The relief for the 10th company had not arrived by 1 am. In the meantime, the English [English is a name that was used for all British and Commonwealth troops by the Germans] managed to break through the neighbouring companies on the right (3. and 4./157). They attacked the 10th company in the right flank and from the rear. Close combat fighting followed, which probably cut up our brave 10th company (see sketch 23) [unfortunately my book doesn't have the sketches attached]. This information is based on statements from individual soldiers of the 10th company, who managed to escape the encirclement in the last minute. More details about what happened to the company are completely missing."

 

Jan

[GregO]

Hi Jan,

Do you have a copy of Wohlenberg? Would be interested if they mention anything about it came undone. The 1st Aust MGC put down a machine gun barrage (~120,000 rounds SAA) in support of the attack. Unlike artillery, you don't really know when an MG barrage is over and when it might start again. Men tend to keep their heads down longer. 

 

Cheers

Greg

[AOK4]

I don't understand your question. I translated everything there is about the 10th company on 23 July 1916.

[phil andrade]

7 hours ago, GregO said:

 

In this case when you add the likely killed from the vermist list, the killed to wounded ratio starts getting above 1, suggests perhaps bombs rolled down dugouts or a direct hit by a shell, rather than a hard fought tussle. Leicht wounds were 22, 42 and 22 resp.

 

 

 

GregO,

 

Howard Kippenberger, testifies to reasons for this.  He served in the NZ Division and stormed German positions in the Flers fighting in mid September 1916.  He gives a very candid account of how German wounded were killed, and little quarter given.  If this was also the case for the Pozieres action, then the high proportion of killed is all too understandable.

 

Phil

[GregO]

All good Jan, that was more than enough, thanks. Probably a reasonable conclusion they were unable to man the parapets in time, thereafter some sort of atrocity occurred. Also probably what happened to the 4./157, though its regimental history is only 63 pages and so gets no mention other than the line is broken at the 10./77R and the outermost left wing and attacks them from behind.

The Australians do captured about 120, the exact composition I am endeavoring to find out. The Intelligence reports are missing.

[AOK4]

7 hours ago, GregO said:

All good Jan, that was more than enough, thanks. Probably a reasonable conclusion they were unable to man the parapets in time, thereafter some sort of atrocity occurred. Also probably what happened to the 4./157, though its regimental history is only 63 pages and so gets no mention other than the line is broken at the 10./77R and the outermost left wing and attacks them from behind.

The Australians do captured about 120, the exact composition I am endeavoring to find out. The Intelligence reports are missing.

 

The regimental history of IR 157 has 459 pages. I know as I have it here.

 

Jan

[GregO]

Hi Jan,

Awesome, do you know if it is available electronically anywhere? I was hoping to

count the casualties for the 23rd July for the 4th Kompanie listed at the back.

Thx

Greg