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4thGordons

Selection of Scottish Uniforms 1914

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4thGordons

Here's one for Frogsmile and the uniform experts - taken in the summer of 1914 at the TF Camp in Tain - a great selection of uniforms/orders of dress/headgear with what looks to be a pipers and some drummers thrown in too. Lots of Gordons but some others too. Unfortunately the original is rather out of focus (esp on the left side)

 

Tain1914.jpg.dc3fdfec442ebf0e22ce1989db98a39d.jpg

 

From the style of dress (collar brasses) and 1903 bandoleers I assume the other unit heavily represented is a yeomanry / mounted unit - can anyone identify them? (I assume the chap central with the dark tie and light shirt is their CO?

The "bush hats" are usually associated with units which served in the Boer war and continued to wear them later,

I believe what unifies all these men is they were all Post Office employees - probably from the Aberdeen area.

 

Observations/Comments most welcome

Chris

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

Territorial Force units at annual summer camp.  Mixture of units as you say.  Gordon Highlanders, Scottish Horse Yeomanry (most in their balmoral bonnets with diced band but some in slouch hats, notice the distinctive 3-button cuffs and collar badges), RAMC (centre rear).  I agree that the TF senior officer present is sat centrally and he’s flanked by a pipe major one side and a drum major (ex regular with 3-medals) on the other.  A couple of Boy entrants, or perhaps more probably cadets slightly left of him as you look (one a sergeant).  The one clear view of a shoulder title that I can see suggests T-5-GORDON, or T-6-GORDON.

 

7F619778-1501-4B2D-8254-79F2E57E7F18.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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4thGordons

Thank very much I will zoom in on shoulder titles and check - obviously I was hoping a different Battalion No! (I know the 1/4 were there immediately prior to the outbreak of the war) I assume you are referring to the chap in the scarlet doublet lying in the front row (right)

 

Is the Sgt (two to the left of centre as we look wearing "Patrol Blues"? - he appears to also have an Imperial Service badge on.(also the men either side of the RAMC men?)

The pipe major appears to have a large Gordons badge on his right sleeve I am not sure I have seen this before.

 

So a question: The regular doublets would of course have been scarlet but at this point (Summer 1914) would Pipers' tunics have been dark green (archer green?) or another colour?)(Black?) Same with the drummers or were theirs also scarlet? Looking at the orthochormatic rendition of the doublets they appear very similar with the exception of the collars and cuffs where there is perhaps a minor variation - but the normal doublet would have yellow collars and cuffs (rendered dark) while the Pipers would have collars/cuffs the same colour as the body of the doublet.

 

Chris

 

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Thank very much I will zoom in on shoulder titles and check - obviously I was hoping a different Battalion No! (I know the 1/4 were there immediately prior to the outbreak of the war) I assume you are referring to the chap in the scarlet doublet lying in the front row (right)

 

Is the Sgt (two to the left of centre as we look wearing "Patrol Blues"? - he appears to also have an Imperial Service badge on.(also the men either side of the RAMC men?)

The pipe major appears to have a large Gordons badge on his right sleeve I am not sure I have seen this before.

 

So a question: The regular doublets would of course have been scarlet but at this point (Summer 1914) would Pipers' tunics have been dark green (archer green?) or another colour?)(Black?) Same with the drummers or were theirs also scarlet? Looking at the orthochormatic rendition of the doublets they appear very similar with the exception of the collars and cuffs where there is perhaps a minor variation - but the normal doublet would have yellow collars and cuffs (rendered dark) while the Pipers would have collars/cuffs the same colour as the body of the doublet.

 

Chris

 

 
I am not positive about the shoulder title but that’s how the shape looks to me and yes it’s the man recumbent at right.

 

Yes, the sergeant you refer to with the Imperial Service tablet is wearing a blue serge patrol frock.  It had a cutaway front for Scottish infantry but not yeomanry.

 

The drum major and drummers are wearing scarlet doublets, but we can tell from their pipers pattern wings that the pipe major and piper are wearing archer green.  The pipers did also have a scarlet doublet, but it was not worn in review order.  The first and second battalions often had subtle differences in their dress as you will see by comparing the photos below.  The PM with the heavier gold cuff, wing and pocket flap lace, a 3-tail sporran, and larger version of appointment badge is from the 2nd Battalion.  Only the pipe majors pipe banner bore the regiment’s battle honours.  The differences were very often idiosyncratic remainders of traditions from the forebear regiments, the 75th and 92nd.

 

The special regimental pipe major’s badge of appointment was introduced around the turn of the century I think.

 

9FB3F5C4-ABE0-40A4-BC71-475CA749CEEC.jpeg

15929B51-5890-4BA6-87C6-8DEC91C5C360.jpeg

 

DF6B3E0F-1690-467F-BC1A-A8A68A97DBE1.jpeg

 

FE002F3B-3DD2-4E30-8E12-5009B3ADA6C5.jpeg

1840924F-1386-44BA-9420-E2737F805D6F.jpeg

 

B7B1FD8B-C37F-441F-822C-CC16EE1AD248.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Ron Abbott

It's not Pipe-Major Isaac Sharp Howarth (6th Gordons, 1908-1915).

It doesn't appear to be Pipe-Major John Kirkton Clark (5th Gordons, 1910-1914)

And unfortunately, I don't have a photo of Pipe-Major Charles Burr (5th Gordons, 1908-1911)

 

p.s...note that back then, some of the Territorial battalions (and not just of the Gordons) of the Scottish regiments also had (unofficial) 'drums & pipes' at company level and not just battalion.  

 

  

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4thGordons

Thanks again!

The first photo you posted is interesting because I believe that is a PANCHROMATIC  (note gold in kilt shows clearly and yellow cuffs are tonally distinct) print not orthochromatic -so likely (but not necessarily) from a little later - do you have any information on that pic?  I see the plain glen, blackcock feathers cross-belt and plaid, but no shoulder wings so is this the piper in a scarlet doublet to which you refer? The sporran badge is also a new one to me!

Off to scan the pic at higher res to examine the shoulder title

Thank you

Chris

1 minute ago, Ron Abbott said:

It's not Pipe-Major Isaac Sharp Howarth (6th Gordons, 1908-1915).

It doesn't appear to be Pipe-Major John Kirkton Clark (5th Gordons, 1910-1914)

And unfortunately, I don't have a photo of Pipe-Major Charles Burr (5th Gordons, 1908-1911)

 

p.s...note that back then, some of the Territorial battalions (and not just of the Gordons) of the Scottish regiments also had (unofficial) 'drums & pipes' at company level and not just battalion.  

 

  

DO you have a pic of the 1/4th Bn Pipe Major Ron?

Chris

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

Yes, the piper without wings is wearing a self-faced scarlet doublet, which was worn as winter working dress (white drill jackets worn in Summer).  He’s thought to be from the 6th Volunteer Battalion (hence perhaps the sporran badge variant) and I’ve reposted him below.  The sporran badge appears to be a voided version of the cap badge worn by that unit.

A929DA1B-46E8-46FF-8668-1D901B39B0E2.jpeg

5583F55C-77D0-4CF9-9E35-FB0F32FC6890.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Ron Abbott
9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 
I am not positive about the shoulder title but that’s how the shape looks to me and yes it’s the man recumbent at right.

 

Yes, the sergeant you refer to with the Imperial Service tablet is wearing a blue serge patrol frock.  It had a cutaway front for Scottish infantry but not yeomanry.

 

The drum major and drummers are wearing scarlet doublets, but we can tell from their pipers pattern wings that the pipe major and piper are wearing archer green.  The pipers did also have a scarlet doublet, but it was not worn in review order.  The first and second battalions often had subtle differences in their dress as you will see by comparing the photos below.  The PM with the heavier gold cuff, wing and pocket flap lace, a 3-tail sporran, and larger version of appointment badge is from the 2nd Battalion.  Only the pipe majors pipe banner bore the regiment’s battle honours.  The differences were very often idiosyncratic remainders of traditions from the forebear regiments, the 75th and 92nd.

 

9FB3F5C4-ABE0-40A4-BC71-475CA749CEEC.jpeg

15929B51-5890-4BA6-87C6-8DEC91C5C360.jpeg

 

DF6B3E0F-1690-467F-BC1A-A8A68A97DBE1.jpeg

 

FE002F3B-3DD2-4E30-8E12-5009B3ADA6C5.jpeg

1840924F-1386-44BA-9420-E2737F805D6F.jpeg

665D8A45-FC74-41CF-ADF2-861F1ADEAA03.jpeg

 

 

The 1st photo above is Pipe-Major Kenneth MacLeod (lived 1868 to 1939 and was P/M of the 2nd, 9th and 11th Battalions).

 

The 2nd is Pipe-Major George Stewart McLennan (lived 1883 to 1929 and was P/M of the 1st Battalion and the Depot). 

 

The 3rd photo I'm not sure about but a possible would be Pipe-Major Charles Davidson Dunbar (lived 1870 to 1939, P/M of the 2nd and 3rd Battalions)

 

The 4th is Pipe-Major James Robertson (lived 1886 to 1961 and was P/M of the 1st Battalion and the Depot). 

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

That’s interesting Ron.  Can you help identify the pipe major who appears in the opening post of this thread?

 

961B8663-450F-45A7-87D6-112E4C398699.jpeg

F83870AB-B03F-44FA-A95B-B020738AC42B.jpeg

4683EA17-53AF-4627-971B-82D6B763F611.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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4thGordons

One clue to the identity of the Pipe Major/Piper may be if they were employed by the Post Office? The caption to the picture is "Post Office Employees at Tain Camp 1914"

Chris

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Ron Abbott
Posted (edited)

Based on the newspaper archives, both the 4th and the 6th battalions of the Gordon Highlanders were at Tain in the summer of 1914.  Although not clear, the 2nd Scottish Horse may also have been there. 

 

Pipe-Major of the drums & pipes of the 6th Battalion was P/M (10115 & 265470) Isaac Sharp Howarth.....but that doesn't appear to be him.  Not a likeness.

 

However I have also come across mention circa 1913/1914 of 'E' Coy (Inverurie?) of the 6th Battalion having it's own pipe band under Pipe-Major Miller.  I don't know who he was.

 

The 4th Battalion had Pipe-Major (155) William Mann.  I don't have a photo of him.  

At some stage however (1915?), Alexander Chisholm became Pipe-Major (3592 & 201091) of the 1/4th Bn. Gordon Highlanders.  

 

During WW1, P/M of the 2/4th and 3/4th battalions included P/M (6167) Charles Leith Hay Grant (lived 1866 to 1947)

 

In answer to the specific question, sorry, but I don't know who the man in the photo is. 

 

    

Edited by Ron Abbott

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

Based on the newspaper archives, both the 4th and the 6th battalions of the Gordon Highlanders were at Tain in the summer of 1914.  Although not clear, the 2nd Scottish Horse may also have been there. 

 

Pipe-Major of the drums & pipes of the 6th Battalion was P/M (10115 & 265470) Isaac Sharp Howarth.....but that doesn't appear to be him.  Not a likeness.

 

However I have also come across mention circa 1913/1914 of 'E' Coy (Inverurie?) of the 6th Battalion having it's own pipe band under Pipe-Major Miller.  I don't know who he was.

 

The 4th Battalion had Pipe-Major (155) William Mann.  I don't have a photo of him.  

At some stage however (1915?), Alexander Chisholm became Pipe-Major (3592 & 201091) of the 1/4th Bn. Gordon Highlanders.  

 

During WW1, P/M of the 2/4th and 3/4th battalions included P/M (6167) Charles Leith Hay Grant (lived 1866 to 1947)

 

In answer to the specific question, sorry, but I don't know who the man in the photo is. 

 

    


Thank you Ron, it’s interesting how these men that you’ve named have in a sense become immortal.  It must have been a source of some slight resentment with the drum major’s of the Scottish regiments, whose names are largely forgotten (I realise the profound difference in musical ability), whereas the drum majors of non-Scots units would have known no better as they lived in a very different regimental culture.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Ron Abbott
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:


Thank you Ron, it’s interesting how these men that you’ve named have in a sense become immortal.  It must have been a source of some slight resentment with the drum major’s of the Scottish regiments, whose names are largely forgotten (I realise the profound difference in musical ability), whereas the drum majors of non-Scots units would have known no better as they lived in a very different regimental culture.

 

Enlarging that photo on the computer and trying to focus in......it struck on me that the collar badges of the troopers appear very 'circular',  Very difficult to tell but maybe more akin to the Lovat Scouts than the Scottish Horse?

 

Going back through the newspaper archives for the whereabouts of the Lovat Scouts in the summer of 1914 also confirms mention that the 1st and 2nd Lovat Scouts were at Tain with battalions of the Gordons in June and early July 1914.  

 

Also on horseback was the Fife & Forfar Yeomanry (although obviously not them in the photo).

 

Just to confuse matters further however, between June and July 1914, there is mention in various newspapers of the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th battalions of the Gordon Highlanders all having their camp at Tain!

 

If the 7th Battalion is added as a possibility then the Pipe-Major may have been a man called James Stewart who was from the Culter area but I don't know anything else about him.

 

 

Edited by Ron Abbott

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

I think you could well be right Ron.  Although restricted to a phone screen view recently I’ve been able to enlarge the image a bit and agree with you that those collar badges that I can see best seem more circular, as you say, and the few bonnet badges with a clearer view similar, so the [edit] Lovat Scouts seem favourite.  
 

Both regiments had the 3-button cuff, although photos show that officers in the one regiment did not always do so during the period when cuff and shoulder rank were simultaneously in vogue.

 

As regards 7th Gordon’s, that seems possible too, the single decent view of a shoulder title isn’t clear enough to be definitive.

946DCE9E-6BE7-40D1-AB20-14432982F01D.jpeg

B0606337-22C6-4E7F-A499-D07A7613415D.jpeg

9C5F7D46-6B1F-494E-8A37-5D532B235F4C.jpeg

855288AA-3DE1-421A-90C8-02070ECA5BD9.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Ron Abbott
21 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

One clue to the identity of the Pipe Major/Piper may be if they were employed by the Post Office? The caption to the picture is "Post Office Employees at Tain Camp 1914"

Chris

 

 

Spent some time today conferring with forum member '51st Sikhs' who has an excellent knowledge of pipers from the past and he noted the Volunteer Long Service Medal on the Pipe-Majors chest.  He also found a photo of the Pipe-Major it was most likely to be.........Pipe-Major William Mann of the 4th Bn. Gordon Highlanders and there is indeed a likeness.

 

William Mann had previously been Pipe-Major of the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Gordon Highlanders from about 1893 until 1908 then continued as Pipe-Major of the 4th Territorial Battalion. He is named in the 16th July 1904 edition of The Scotsman newspaper being awarded the Volunteer Long Service Medal. 

 

When the photo at Tain was taken (if in 1914) he would have been 49 years of age.

 

 

 

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TullochArd
Posted (edited)
On 18/05/2020 at 22:18, 4thGordons said:

Here's one for Frogsmile and the uniform experts - taken in the summer of 1914 at the TF Camp in Tain - a great selection of uniforms/orders of dress/headgear with what looks to be a pipers and some drummers thrown in too. Lots of Gordons but some others too. Unfortunately the original is rather out of focus (esp on the left side)

 

Tain1914.jpg.dc3fdfec442ebf0e22ce1989db98a39d.jpg

 

From the style of dress (collar brasses) and 1903 bandoleers I assume the other unit heavily represented is a yeomanry / mounted unit - can anyone identify them? (I assume the chap central with the dark tie and light shirt is their CO?

The "bush hats" are usually associated with units which served in the Boer war and continued to wear them later,

I believe what unifies all these men is they were all Post Office employees - probably from the Aberdeen area.

 

Observations/Comments most welcome

Chris

 

........such strange groups always have a hidden affinity and the PO thought is very credible.  Orkney and Shetland have a parallel Lovat Scout links with the pre-air flight geographic connection being Orkney/Camerons and Shetland/Gordons along the regular sea lanes.   As an Annual Camp the coming together of these odd groups was common and a PO affinity may range very wide indeed and we may have a few Shetland LS here..  As for the comment on the officer's light shirt.  Whilst serving with the antecedent LS in Orkney in the 80's (that's 1980's) the story of LS officers shirts at "one time"  being made up as standard from a huge bolt of light blue material was still in circulation.  No actual proof of that of course.

Edited by TullochArd

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4thGordons

Thanks all for the continued observations and information.

The photo is a little damaged but I will endeavour to rescan it at higher resolution today and post some close ups of the collar brasses etc.

Thank you Ron and 51stSikhs for the information on PM William Mann. I checked my rolls and battalion Standing Orders (1914) an I have a listing for him (listed as Sgt-Piper) Batt'n number 119.

 

I have just realized that I have the names of several other 4th Gordons pipers in these listings:

119   W Mann Sgt-Piper B Coy

172   W McCleod Cpl A Coy

530   J Shaw C Coy

871   N Paterson G Coy

1000 A Simpson A Coy

1090 W Cruickshanks D Coy

1180 J A Foot E Coy

 

Chris

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

 

Spent some time today conferring with forum member '51st Sikhs' who has an excellent knowledge of pipers from the past and he noted the Volunteer Long Service Medal on the Pipe-Majors chest.  He also found a photo of the Pipe-Major it was most likely to be.........Pipe-Major William Mann of the 4th Bn. Gordon Highlanders and there is indeed a likeness.

 

William Mann had previously been Pipe-Major of the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Gordon Highlanders from about 1893 until 1908 then continued as Pipe-Major of the 4th Territorial Battalion. He is named in the 16th July 1904 edition of The Scotsman newspaper being awarded the Volunteer Long Service Medal. 

 

When the photo at Tain was taken (if in 1914) he would have been 49 years of age.

 

 

 


I do believe that you and 51st Sikhs have cracked it Ron, there certainly seems a likeness.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Ron Abbott
14 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Thanks all for the continued observations and information.

The photo is a little damaged but I will endeavour to rescan it at higher resolution today and post some close ups of the collar brasses etc.

Thank you Ron and 51stSikhs for the information on PM William Mann. I checked my rolls and battalion Standing Orders (1914) an I have a listing for him (listed as Sgt-Piper) Batt'n number 119.

 

I have just realized that I have the names of several other 4th Gordons pipers in these listings:

119   W Mann Sgt-Piper B Coy

172   W McCleod Cpl A Coy

530   J Shaw C Coy

871   N Paterson G Coy

1000 A Simpson A Coy

1090 W Cruickshanks D Coy

1180 J A Foot E Coy

 

Chris

 

Maybe the same as William Cruickshank who went on to become Pipe-Major of the 4th Gordons in the 1920s? It is recorded that he was tutored by P/M William Mann.

There was a family surnamed Cruickshank  who were pipers in the Gordon Highlanders. 

In fact, William's brother, George Cruickshank; was Pipe-Major of the 5/7th Gordons in the 1920s and 1930s.

Yet another, John Cruickshank was Pipe-Major of one of the battalions (possibly the 6th Gordons) in the 1930s. 

 

But just to confuse matters, there were also Cruickshanks around the time who were Pipe-Majors of the 1st Cameron Highlanders and the 3rd Royal Scots Fusiliers.

And you will find the newspapers and other sources mixing up Cruickshank and Cruickshanks.

 

'A Simpson' may be the man of the same name who went on to become Pipe-Major in one of the battalions of the Gordon Highlanders in the 1920s as well !

 

 

 

 

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4thGordons

Many thanks again Ron, for all the additional detail.

 

Here are some detail scans (not much clearer to be honest) of some of the elements mentioned about (Individuals, Collar and shoulder brasses etc)

94718333_TainCamp1914detail1.jpg.ef6379b24e00e8ed4d5700b700ea8b56.jpg

 

106250718_TainCamp1914detail2.jpg.c1b6324dca4a74d79f9606f4f0de13b9.jpg

 

968047001_TainCamp1914detail4.jpg.915567a3160a78de476bad298411d97e.jpg

1078069201_TainCamp1914detail5.jpg.c535c526e09d8ddd32854b01161764a9.jpg

 

604592649_TainCamp1914detail3.jpg.ac31b114b1e56f596b3a851c8f7d5188.jpg

 

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FROGSMILE

I think it confirms Lovat Scouts (l confused myself earlier).  Seeing the close ups brings to focus the mixture of rather mature men leavened by a few callow youths that was the typical make up of pre-war TF units.

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