PTE Edward Westbrook Worcs reg / Ox & Bucks LI?

[WWFC89]

Hello,

 

I'm trying to find information about my Great Grandad during the First World War. I know that he joined the 3rd Worcesters (22298) along with his brother Arthur on 29th April 1915, they went to F/F 13th July 1915 and that he was transferred across to the OBLI (29538) until he was discharged in February 1919. But I do not know when or which battalion of the OBLI he transferred to as I would like to trace his whereabouts?

 

I have searched on Ancestry, but the records that I have found have mentioned the Ox and Bucks Light Infantry but not a specific date of when he transferred or to which battalion.

 

I would be eternally grateful if anyone had any information on this?

 

Thank you very much.

 

Adam

Edited 17 May , 2020 by WWFC89

[PRC]

2 hours ago, WWFC89 said:

I'm trying to find information about my Great Grandad during the First World War. I know that he joined the 3rd Worcesters (22298) along with his brother Arthur on 29th April 1915, they went to F/F 13th July 1915 and that he was transferred across to the OBLI (29538) until he was discharged in February 1919. But I do not know when or which battalion of the OBLI he transferred to as I would like to trace his whereabouts?

 

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

In the nicest possible way - "how" do you know this information? It's very, very unlikely that someone would be out in France within 10 weeks of enlisting. It also doesn't look like his service records have survived.

 

He also would not have joined the Army and gone to 3rd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment on the 29th April 1915 - they had been in France since the 16th August 1914.

While he could have started off with a Home Service only Battalion of the Worcesters, it is unlikely was transferred administratively to the 3rd Battalion at the end of April 1915 receiving a new service number but then took ten weeks to land in France.

 

So to firm up a few dates. He was honourably discharged and was able to claim the Silver War Badge. The Silver War Badge Roll, available on Ancestry only will include details such as his date of enlistment, and may flesh out the reason for his discharge, (amongst other things). Quality of information on the Rolls varies enormously but date of enlistment seems to be on them all.

 

Due to his date of entry in a Theatre of War (France) on the 13th July 1915 he is entitled to the 1914/15 Star, the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. There is one service medal roll that covers both of the last two medals (available only on Ancestry) and is most relevant to your search for his units. If the clerk who completed the roll followed the standard guidance then this should show all the units he served with overseas.

 

Soldiers didn't routinely transfer between units. The most likely scenario is that the individual concerned was wounded \ accidentally injured \ fell ill \ had health issues and was medically evacuated back as far as the coast and possibly even the UK. On recovery in the UK he would be posted to his regimental depot and after a period of refresher training \ medical assessment, if fit for the front line would be sent as part of a draft to France where he would arrive at an Infantry Base Depot. If his recovery was at a hospital in France then he would go straight to an Infantry Base Depot. From the start of 1916 onwards drafts from the Infantry Base Depot would be sent wherever they were needed - a man would be lucky to end up in another battalion of his own regiment or even his old division.

 

If your Great Grandad was wounded in combat then he will turn up on a Casualty list. Unfortunately if it was accident \ illness \ health then he won't. Best bet is then seeing if he gets a mention in local papers. I would normally recommend trying the British Newspapers Archive at your local public library if you are resident in the UK, but obviously thats a non-starter at the moment.

 

FindMyPast has some of the Admission and Discharge Books for the Medical facilities in France, Flanders & the UK. Sometimes it's possible to track a man through the medical evacuation chain via those.

 

Otherwise it can be a question of looking for other soldiers with nearby service numbers to see if their service records have survived and look for patterns such as when and how they joined the OBLI.

 

Hopefully other forum members will be along shortly who have access to Ancestry & FMP but for now that should get you started.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Edited 17 May , 2020 by PRC
1) Typo 2) Could add up :)

[Mark1959]

The SWB roll indicates EW did serve 29/4/15 to 6/2/19 and was discharged due to wounds. However a Pension card makes me question reason for discharge. That says he suffered from attributable TB and bronchitis.

The medal rolls do not specify battalion apart from the 1914/15 Star roll that says 3rd Worcesters. He appears in a casualty list reported wounded. Report dated 17/8/16. He was still with the Worcesters then. That “wounding” would have been in the weeks leading up to the publication. The authorities were struggling with the numbers from the Somme at this time and the wounding may have been several weeks before

Welcome to the forum Adam.

[WWFC89]

19 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

In the nicest possible way - "how" do you know this information? It's very, very unlikely that someone would be out in France within 10 weeks of enlisting. It also doesn't look like his service records have survived.

 

He also would not have joined the Army and gone to 3rd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment on the 29th April 1915 - they had been in France since the 16th August 1914.

While he could have started off with a Home Service only Battalion of the Worcesters, it is unlikely was transferred administratively to the 3rd Battalion at the end of April 1915 receiving a new service number but then took ten weeks to land in France.

 

So to firm up a few dates. He was honourably discharged and was able to claim the Silver War Badge. The Silver War Badge Roll, available on Ancestry only will include details such as his date of enlistment, and may flesh out the reason for his discharge, (amongst other things). Quality of information on the Rolls varies enormously but date of enlistment seems to be on them all.

 

Due to his date of entry in a Theatre of War (France) on the 13th July 1915 he is entitled to the 1914/15 Star, the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. There is one service medal roll that covers both of the last two medals (available only on Ancestry) and is most relevant to your search for his units. If the clerk who completed the roll followed the standard guidance then this should show all the units he served with overseas.

 

Soldiers didn't routinely transfer between units. The most likely scenario is that the individual concerned was wounded \ accidentally injured \ fell ill \ had health issues and was medically evacuated back as far as the coast and possibly even the UK. On recovery in the UK he would be posted to his regimental depot and after a period of refresher training \ medical assessment, if fit for the front line would be sent as part of a draft to France where he would arrive at an Infantry Base Depot. If his recovery was at a hospital in France then he would go straight to an Infantry Base Depot. From the start of 1916 onwards drafts from the Infantry Base Depot would be sent wherever they were needed - a man would be lucky to end up in another battalion of his own regiment or even his old division.

 

If your Great Grandad was wounded in combat then he will turn up on a Casualty list. Unfortunately if it was accident \ illness \ health then he won't. Best bet is then seeing if he gets a mention in local papers. I would normally recommend trying the British Newspapers Archive at your local public library if you are resident in the UK, but obviously thats a non-starter at the moment.

 

FindMyPast has some of the Admission and Discharge Books for the Medical facilities in France, Flanders & the UK. Sometimes it's possible to track a man through the medical evacuation chain via those.

 

Otherwise it can be a question of looking for other soldiers with nearby service numbers to see if their service records have survived and look for patterns such as when and how they joined the OBLI.

 

Hopefully other forum members will be along shortly who have access to Ancestry & FMP but for now that should get you started.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Hi Peter,

 

Thank you. It's ok no worries, I found the date on his medal index card mentioning France and date of entry therein as being 13/7/15 so I assumed that was when he went across to France? 

 

Thank you you for all of the information, yes it does show the units he served in on the medal roll it but it did not show the battalion for the OBLI?

 

I remember Grandad saying that he assumed that he had transferred to the OBLI because they were short of men due to them being in heavy fighting, but the trouble was he died when Grandad was only 11 so it's limited information we have of him. Would you have thought it might have been the 2nd OBLI? As I think they were there until 1919 I think?

 

Thanks Peter, are they accessible through the internet the British Newspaper Archive do you know?

 

Thanks very much again.

 

Adam 

[WWFC89]

19 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

The SWB roll indicates EW did serve 29/4/15 to 6/2/19 and was discharged due to wounds. However a Pension card makes me question reason for discharge. That says he suffered from attributable TB and bronchitis.

The medal rolls do not specify battalion apart from the 1914/15 Star roll that says 3rd Worcesters. He appears in a casualty list reported wounded. Report dated 17/8/16. He was still with the Worcesters then. That “wounding” would have been in the weeks leading up to the publication. The authorities were struggling with the numbers from the Somme at this time and the wounding may have been several weeks before

Welcome to the forum Adam.

Hi Mark,

 

thanks very much.

 

That makes sense! Because Grandad said that he died in 1937 due to being gassed in the First World War and the effects that it had on him. 

Thank you ever so much for that Mark, I never knew that he was on a casualty list. 

 

His brother Arthur had been discharged in the May of the same year due to wounds according to his SWB record.

 

Thank you again.

 

Adam 

[charlie962]

OBLI near number 29533 was issued to Geo Thos Denley on 25/5/17.

 

This might suggest Westbrook was transferred at about this date, which is well after the Aug 1916 Casualty List ?

 

Charlie

[PRC]

3 hours ago, WWFC89 said:

yes it does show the units he served in on the medal roll it but it did not show the battalion for the OBLI?

 

I've come across this scenario a few times over the years  but only twice have I come across associated service papers.  In both cases the men were wounded in action in late 1916 and ended up in "blighty" for treatment. On recovery instead of being posted to their regimental depot they were sent elsewhere - one went to a Training Reserve Battalion that later was renamed as a Graduated Battalion of another County Regiment. I believed they were medically graded B2 or B3. Despite the subsequent multiple weeding out exercises and compulsory medical boards that is where the two remained - they weren't even shunted to the Labour Corps or considered for an early discharge. Both were Privates, so I assume they were not instructors, but there is nothing in the Service Records to indicate what roles they preformed.

 

The unit they were with at the end of hostilities was responsible for issuing their medals, so it's on that regiments service medal roll that they appear. However as they didn't serve overseas with them, no battalion is shown on the roll, only the regiment.

 

So I may just have come across the only two instances of this scenario, or it may provide a wider explanation for men like your Great-Grandad, I honestly don't know.

 

He may therefore have found his way back to the 3rd Worcesters after the 1916 wounding, or he may have taken a while to recover and gone to the OBLI, possibly without seeing anymore service overseas.

 

3 hours ago, WWFC89 said:

Thanks Peter, are they accessible through the internet the British Newspaper Archive do you know?

 

You can subscribe directly. - https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/account/login

 

The software used to render the scanned images as text is a tad quirky, to put it mildly, which is why I'd normally recommend trying it at the Library first. If you can see past the stuff that has been transcribed as gibberish, and can be creative with your search criteria, then there is actually a lot there than can be very helpful for researching family history full stop.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[WWFC89]

15 hours ago, charlie962 said:

OBLI near number 29533 was issued to Geo Thos Denley on 25/5/17.

 

This might suggest Westbrook was transferred at about this date, which is well after the Aug 1916 Casualty List ?

 

Charlie

 

Thanks very much Charlie, I wondered if it would be around May 1917 as I have been looking at other service numbers. 29540 Alexander S Closs died 25/1/18 but I could not find his service record.

 

Adam 

Edited 19 May , 2020 by WWFC89

[WWFC89]

15 hours ago, PRC said:

He may therefore have found his way back to the 3rd Worcesters after the 1916 wounding, or he may have taken a while to recover and gone to the OBLI, possibly without seeing anymore service overseas.

 

Thanks Peter. I've had a look at the regimental numbers and I've noticed those that have 294 in the number tended to have joined the Worcesters to start with then went across to the 2nd Garrison / 11th Garrison Bn. Such as 29455 Charles Underwood and 29434 Bert Dredge I don't know if this is of any significance? 

 

I also found Frederick Walker 29507 who had previously served with the Worcesters as well. 

 

Thank you  very much for the information about about the News archives I'll have a look to see if there is anything useful there.

 

The below information was sent by the OBLI museum about 10+ years ago, I don't know if that is of any use or shed any light on anything?

 

Adam

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, WWFC89 said:

The below information was sent by the OBLI museum about 10+ years ago, I don't know if that is of any use or shed any light on anything?

This only covers what we have already know above. In fact I think we have added- the casualty report date and a likely transfer date plus all the other little bits for you to follow up.

charlie

[PRC]

Adam,

 

My personal observation would be that it came down to how much effort the individual Clerk wanted to put in when creating the Victory Medal & British War Medal Roll and then updating the Medal Index card. Edward service with the 3rd Worcesters already entitled him to the Medals and they were issued by the OBLI would be the close to the bear minimum, (unless he served in the Essex Regiment \ MGC \ RFA \ RAMC and a few others where they seem to get away with even less!)

 

If the clerk was faced with adding multiple lines, not just once but hundreds of time to reflect that a man had joined the 2nd Garrison Battalion and then it was renamed the 11th Garrison Battalion then the temptation might have been there not to even start. Mind you, makes it da**ed hard for those of us trying to put together the breadcrumbs of information a century later

 

One last thought. War Diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive - you just have to register an account if you haven't got one. They do have a War Diary for the 2nd Garrison Battalion, OBLI. It covers up to September 1917 - so very likely to include the period when Edward and the other ex-Worcesters might have joined them if that is where they went. Could be worth downloading and checking to see if they received a largish draft - and possibly even why. Was it a backfill for men released to front line units because of high casualties, which would sort of tie in with your Grand-dads memories.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/d1b82b56bff94a2a8b17c713c6d76e63

 

Cheers,

Peter

[WWFC89]

 

On 19/05/2020 at 15:00, charlie962 said:

This only covers what we have already know above. In fact I think we have added- the casualty report date and a likely transfer date plus all the other little bits for you to follow up.

charlie

 

Thanks Charlie, do you think the casualty report would contain details of the type of wound? Because we were never told of him having a disability only that he was gassed during the war? 

 

Thanks

Adam 

[WWFC89]

On 19/05/2020 at 19:33, PRC said:

Adam,

 

My personal observation would be that it came down to how much effort the individual Clerk wanted to put in when creating the Victory Medal & British War Medal Roll and then updating the Medal Index card. Edward service with the 3rd Worcesters already entitled him to the Medals and they were issued by the OBLI would be the close to the bear minimum, (unless he served in the Essex Regiment \ MGC \ RFA \ RAMC and a few others where they seem to get away with even less!)

 

If the clerk was faced with adding multiple lines, not just once but hundreds of time to reflect that a man had joined the 2nd Garrison Battalion and then it was renamed the 11th Garrison Battalion then the temptation might have been there not to even start. Mind you, makes it da**ed hard for those of us trying to put together the breadcrumbs of information a century later

 

One last thought. War Diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive - you just have to register an account if you haven't got one. They do have a War Diary for the 2nd Garrison Battalion, OBLI. It covers up to September 1917 - so very likely to include the period when Edward and the other ex-Worcesters might have joined them if that is where they went. Could be worth downloading and checking to see if they received a largish draft - and possibly even why. Was it a backfill for men released to front line units because of high casualties, which would sort of tie in with your Grand-dads memories.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/d1b82b56bff94a2a8b17c713c6d76e63

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks again Peter for the information.

It's true!  

Sorry for my ignorance but what role did the 2nd Garrison OBLI under take during the war? Was it a frontline unit? I've tried looking into information about them and I haven't got very far.

Thanks Peter I've downloaded their diary. They did have 36 men move from England on 21/2/17 and a number of men arrive from No.55 Infantry Base depot Rouen on numerous dates. They also had 49 men arrive from Etaples on 23/6/17 which is around the time of the potential transfer date we mentioned earlier? 

 

I've also found out that he married my Great Nan in Jul/Aug/Sep 1918 and that the marriage was registered in Birmingham, Warwickshire. Were they allowed leave to go back home he was overseas serving at that point? Once again sorry for my ignorance.

 

Adam

[charlie962]

15 hours ago, WWFC89 said:

Thanks Charlie, do you think the casualty report would contain details of the type of wound? Because we were never told of him having a disability only that he was gassed during the war? 

Sometimes it is noted Wounded-gassed but generally just Wounded. Never any more details in the official Casualty List. You have to check the war diary and see what was going on that day to see if there was gas or whatever for perhaps a clue. Pension Cards, which are in the process of being digitised, may, if you are lucky, give a result. But check in 6mth or more's time as there is nothing yet in those digitised so far. There are no surviving Hospital Admissions Registers that mention him. The other source is local papers.

 

Charly

[WWFC89]

4 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Sometimes it is noted Wounded-gassed but generally just Wounded. Never any more details in the official Casualty List. You have to check the war diary and see what was going on that day to see if there was gas or whatever for perhaps a clue. Pension Cards, which are in the process of being digitised, may, if you are lucky, give a result. But check in 6mth or more's time as there is nothing yet in those digitised so far. There are no surviving Hospital Admissions Registers that mention him. The other source is local papers.

 

Charly

Thanks Charlie.

Mark was right the wounding seemed a few weeks before, as on the 17/8/16 the battalion was off of the front lines at Hedauville.

In the war diaries it mentions on a scrap piece of paper casualties from 1st Aug - 26th Aug 1916. On 3/8/16 8 other ranks were wounded and 5 other ranks were wounded on 5/8/16 which makes me wonder if it was one of these two days. The next casualties weren't until 19/8/16. So I'm assuming he was injured towards the start of the month. It mentions in the diary that the battalion were in trenches opposite Beaumont Hamel at that time.

Ok thanks again I'll have a look at them to see if anything turns up with the pension card. I've had a look on the British Newspaper Archives' website but there is no mention of him there. I'm wondering if it might have been mentioned in the Express and Star newspaper, which is one of the newpapers where he used to live but I don't think it is on the British Newspaper Archives' website?

 

Thanks

Adam 

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, WWFC89 said:

Mark was right the wounding seemed a few weeks before, as on the 17/8/16

For reasons of administration as well as not telling the enemy straight away how many we lost there was typically a 4 week delay between actual wounding and appearing in the Official Casualty List. Have a look perhaps at War diary mid July 1916 at the latest ?

 

Charlie