Ypres or the Somme - which was the worst?

[kevin ley]

I have just finished reading a fascinating book on Ypres 1914-1918 and the history of all the battles and fighting that went on there by Winston Groom, an American ex-Vietnam Vet.

The undercurrent running throughout the book was that Ypres was the one constant throughout the whole duration of the war and the place that most soldiers feared most i.e. the dreaded salient. Much in the same way that in WW2 the seminal battle was Stalingrad (another salient of sorts) Ypres is argued as the equivalent for WW1.

So for the ordinary soldier which was worst - Ypres or the Somme??

Having lit the fuse I will now retire to a safe distance.

Kevin.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Most accounts I have come across go for Ypres being the worst but the 6/K.S.L.I. War Diary (I think) states that the winter on the Somme 1916 was worse then Ypres, as for the fighting I would go for Ypres myself ?.

Annette

[Paul Reed]

Norman Gladden, a veteran I had the pleasure to know very well, who served at and wrote books about both the Somme and Ypres, always said the last two months of the battle (October-November 1916) was worse than anything he experienced at Passchendaele.

[PhilB]

I`ve only spoken to a handful of veterans of both the Somme and Ypres 17, but Ypres usually got the worse response. Phil B

[truthergw]

I should think that this is not open to a definitive answer, but Jonathon Nicholls in "Cheerful Sacrifice", puts forward some fairly convincing statistics to suggest that Arras 1917 was worse than either.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi truthergw

The fighting at Arras after 9th April was very intense indeed, but the Somme took place over a longer time scale and at Ypres there was heavy fighting every year of the War, OK 1916 was not so intense. I think many soldiers were more then happy to move from Ypres to Arras sector.

Annette

[Tim Birch]

Both were horrible. Maybe the fighting on the Somme was more intense in that the British were fighting and slowly destroying the cream of the German army? Some of the fighting for particular objectives eg High Wood were more prolonged than anything seen in any of the three main Ypres battles.

Tim

[Bernard_Lewis]

G.H.Crick came through the July 1916 Welsh Division attack on Mametz Wood relatively unscathed though the div suffered more than 4000 casualties. He commented that the Swansea Bn was then moved to the Ypres Salient - 'a far worse place'. He was still having nightmares about in the the mid-1970s.

Mametz Wood was a short(ish) but sharp shock to what was essentially a civilian army; the Salient was a hard, long, grinding war of attrition, often fought in a quagmire of mud. I'll go with Mr Crick's opinion and thank God I was not there with him...

Bernard

[Guest steveb21]

Mate,

I think most aussie wrters put the Somme down as there worst becauce of what we had to do at Poziers and the holding and progrestion of the fighting there.

But at Ypres in 1917 we had a number of victories that untill late 1917 in the mud of Pasendale battle ( i mean the last fight to capture the heights and town later captured by the Canadians) went very good for us, ie Messines, the Menin Road, Polygon wood and Broodside.

Also since we didn't get to spend a lot of time in the Yres area during the war I didn't get the same press but for drawing on the British expirences we all read about and tranfered to us.

S.B

[stiletto_33853]

Rifle Brigade accounts always state that they went to Ypres always with a sense of dread. The Fighting on the Somme was terrible for sure but they relate the different style of living for example being able to walk around more on the Somme whereas even showing yourself on the Salient was tantamount to death.

Andy

[Guest DNH]

Guess it depends on exactly the nature of the experience at either or both fronts. Certainly any of the fighting for High and Delville Woods, or the autumn and winter slogging up the Transloy ridges, or the fighting for fortified villages must come close in experience to anything at the salient.

I think what earned the Salient its infamy was that it was never quiet, even when there was no 'major' fighting. The salient was always overlooked by German artillery, as were the roads leading up to it and there was not really any such thing as a quiet spell in the trenches or an easy relief.

Very difficult to compare, and I guess each soldier had a different take on it depending on his own experience, but I for one am very glad that I am not in a position to be able to make the comparison...

[griffy]

I suspect DNH has put his finger on it. It depends if you are talking about routine line holding or the various battles. Prior to the 1916 offensive the Somme was a relatively quite sector. Ypres however being a salient was always likely to be a more arduous posting even when no major offensive was taking place.

Lukily I don't have to make the choice but I think I would rather tunnel through chalk than through clay

[Potter]

I interviewed Captain Philip Howe (West Yorks) who features in Middlebrook's "First Day of the Somme" and asked him this question. He said Third Ypres was worst because it was hard to feel brave when you were wet and cold.

[Tim Birch]

I interviewed Captain Philip Howe (West Yorks) who features in Middlebrook's "First Day of the Somme" and asked him this question. He said Third Ypres was worst because it was hard to feel brave when you were wet and cold.

Don't forget July 1 was mid summer. There was plenty of wet and cold during the final fighting on the Somme in 1916. The attack on 18 November against Munich Trench and Frankfurt Rench took place in whirling sleet which afterwards chaged to rain and the Official History describes how the soldiers groped their way "through half frozen mud that was soon to disolve into chalky slime".

The description of the area fought over for Le Sars and the Butte de Walencourt sounds like the slough of despond.

You have only got to try and walk through wet chalk to realise how slippery and clinging it becomes, and that's without the added discomfort of being shelled.

Pictures of the Salient look equally like a form of hell on earth. As others have said we can only be thankful that none of us have been put in the position of trying to judge between two extremes of horror and discomfort.

[DrB]

A moot point to say the least.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Read one hundred and one accounts of the event and you will have one hundred and one impressions of "This was the worst!"

Depends weither or not you were "in the rear with the beer" or on the pointly end, and for just how long.

As Wellington said when asked to describe the Battle of Waterloo..and this is paraphrased: "You may just as well ask me to describe a ball."

DNH has it. Depends on who was there and what he saw or personally experienced.

This is one the Monday Morning Quarterbacks will never agree on.

DrB

[Paul Hederer]

Kevin,

I've never heard an historical comparison between Ypres and Stalingrad, commonly known as "Verdun on the Volga," I'd like to hear more about the author's argument and comparison's.

Paul

[kevin ley]

Paul,

It is not the authors comparison but my own - Stalingrad and Ypres.

Winston Groom's book was about Ypres only and its theme was that this was the place that the soldiers truly dreaded above all - there are many soldiers accounts quoted in the book to that effect. "When he heard the name Ypres..he cursed it's name" etc etc.

I think there are some interesting parallels to be drawn between Ypres and Stalingrad - despite the difference in longevity of the respective battles.

1. Ultimately the Germans had to take Ypres in the first war and Stalingrad in the second if they were going to achieve victory.

2. In both cases the Germans first experience unexpected resistance, which hardened with every passing day leading to stalemate.

3. Both places reach "mythological status" in the mind of the soldier. To lose the battles for either of these cities would have resulted in irrecoverable loss of morale and fighting spirit i.e. simple too much had been invested on either side. The German Army never recovered from the loss at Stalingrad.

Kevin.

[Paul Hederer]

Kevin,

How would taking Ypres win the war for the Germans?

Paul

[AndyHollinger]

I've hesitated to get into this one ... but Ypres and Stalingrad are two different situations ... other than what you mention about attaining mythic status.

Stalingrad was more in the mind of the Furher for it's symbolic appeal than any real signficance, militarily - yes, the Vulga had to be penetrated, but why not by-pass and cut off like they'd done a hundred times before .... the name, the idea of defeating the Russians there...

I doubt the WWI Germans cared much where they'd defeat a British Army and they never exposed themselves to such a signficant loss as they did at Stalingrad ...Stalingrad and El Alemain are important as turning points, not as individual battles (IMHO) Ypres stands as a memorial to perseverence and not as a turning point ...

But, I may be wrong.

[Paul Hederer]

I asked some German friends about this and I would have to say that it seems, at least, that Ypres does not hold the same "mythological status" in their eyes as Stalingrad, or Verdun. One suggested that it does so in British or perhaps Belgian eyes.

Paul

[Cliff. Hobson]

My Father who was very reluctant to talk about the war did once remark to me, after a visit I made to Ypres and the Menin Gate many years ago, said they had a feeling of dread when they marched through the what was the Gate into the Salient.

Cliff.

[Guest steveb21]

Can I also say that because Britian, the Commonweath counties and the US didn't fight at Starlingrad we have not the say mytholigy as the Germans or Russians.

While we did at Ypres so we feel closer to this then the other.

The Germans of cause fought at both an since the living memory is of Stalingrad then this would be more in there minds then say Ypres which was well passed it.

S.B

[spike10764]

I suspect Ypres, fought in the worse weather, in the more devastated landscape, was the worst for the fighting troops.

Also the early enthusiasm of the volunteers will have been somewhat blunted by this stage of the war.

Thankfully the will to win and sense of not letting your comrades down held firm.