Help tracing my relative - Albert V Cocksedge in MGC

[Malcolm Cocksedge]

Hello Everyone. I would be most grateful for any pointers as to where I should search for more information on Albert V. (Victor)  Cocksedge who was in the Machine Gun Corp. Born in Leicester, he was a renowned boxer, fighting some to the top boxers of his time  before and after the War. I wonder if he boxed for his battalion/ Regiment? The only information I have is his Regimental No 123967 and "Company No " WO 329. I would welcome any information members could give me to get me started. Many Thanks.

[jonbem]

Hi and welcome

First click the Long Long Trail tab at the top of the page

Lots of initial help on there

 

regards

Jon

[Malcolm Cocksedge]

Many Thanks

[david murdoch]

Not much on him I'm afraid. just medal card and medal roll just gives the one number - no previous unit and discharged. No 15 Star so served only 1916 onwards. He was an older man - in his 30's Discharged 11/5/1919. Looking at some close numbers who were killed or discharged with Silver War Badge should give a better idea when he enlisted or was conscripted.

[corisande]

You can get a fair number of references to his boxing matches on newspapers in FindMyPast - click link

[corisande]

..and he was killed by a car in 1928. It is amazing how sportsmen  tend to be famous for 15 minutes, that list of boxers he fought means little today

 

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, Malcolm Cocksedge said:

Hello Everyone. I would be most grateful for any pointers as to where I should search for more information on Albert V. (Victor)  Cocksedge who was in the Machine Gun Corp. Born in Leicester, he was a renowned boxer, fighting some to the top boxers of his time  before and after the War. I wonder if he boxed for his battalion/ Regiment? The only information I have is his Regimental No 123967 and "Company No " WO 329. I would welcome any information members could give me to get me started. Many Thanks.

 

The fact he did not have a 14-15 Star simply means he did not serve overseas in a theatre of war before 31 December 1915; the Medal Roll shows he was ‘disembodied’ which is a term associated with the Territorial Force.  As a ‘flyweight’ he may have been fit but of slight stature and was ‘combed out’ as the need for reinforcements for France became acute.

 

He was transferred to the MGC mid-October 1917.  Training for the MGC in the U.K. was about six weeks so we’re looking at posting to France December/January 1918 at the earliest.  The MGC Base Depot in France was at Camiers where men would typically spend a couple of weeks before posting to an active service Company.  In February 1918 the Brigade Companies were  absorbed into Divisional MG Battalions.  Unfortunately the details of service for individual soldiers are very difficult to be certain about, similarly details of his home service TF Unit are, in the absence of a service record, lost.  

WO/329 is a National Archive index reference to the Medal Rolls and has no relevance to where he served. 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14533

 

One of the newspaper accounts cited above from November 1919 notes he had been, ‘a stranger to the sport for some time.’  A comment which suggests he had been in the Army for some time.

 

 

Ken

 

[Malcolm Cocksedge]

To Jonbem, David Murdoch, Corisande and kenf48 . I much appreciate the information and pointers you've supplied which I'll now share with the rest of the family.             Many Thanks to you all.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Malcolm Cocksedge said:

To Jonbem, David Murdoch, Corisande and kenf48 . I much appreciate the information and pointers you've supplied which I'll now share with the rest of the family.             Many Thanks to you all.

 

There is perhaps one small kernel of hope, albeit that it will be a long shot.  As Ken said the term 'disembodied' refers to Territorial Force (auxiliary citizen soldiers) service, suggesting that that is where he started.  The TF retained a degree of independence throughout the war and were still recruiting even after conscription providing that a man volunteered willingly to join them.  TF units were very much localised and so it is likely that he joined somewhere close to his home town.  If you have his full names and a date of birth, plus home town, you can try TF records that are often duplicated at regional or county libraries, in addition to any held by the National Archives Office.  It will also be worth searching in the newspaper archives of local publications related to his then home town.  It's not impossible that he had some prewar service as an auxiliary soldier.  Before 1908 there were two branches for infantry auxiliaries, the Militia and the Volunteer Battalions.  Any prewar service would not be referred to on his medal index card (MIC).  See: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/volunteers-territorials/

Good luck.

Edited 11 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Malcolm Cocksedge]

Many Thanks

[david murdoch]

58 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

There is perhaps one small kernel of hope, albeit that it will be a long shot.  As Ken said the term 'disembodied' refers to Territorial Force (auxiliary citizen soldiers) service, suggesting that that is where he started.  The TF retained a degree of independence throughout the war and were still recruiting even after conscription providing that a man volunteered willingly to join them.  TF units were very much localised and so it is likely that he joined somewhere close to his home town.  If you have his full names and a date of birth, plus home town, you can try TF records that are often duplicated at regional or county libraries, in addition to any held by the National Archives Office.  It will also be worth searching in the newspaper archives of local publications related to his then home town.  It's not impossible that he had some prewar service as an auxiliary soldier.  Before 1908 there were two branches for infantry auxiliaries, the Militia and the Volunteer Battalions.  Any prewar service would not be referred to on his medal index card (MIC).  See: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/volunteers-territorials/

Good luck.

Looking at some of the nearby casualties in his number range on Soldiers Died. Two of the earliest ones are March 1918 and both have previous units listed - which don't show on their medal rolls or cards, and both are (TF). Another with Silver War Badge enlisted early 1916. Without service or discharge record not possible to say when exactly he enlisted or with which regiment, but it's likely he had a period of home service prior to transfer to the MGC. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Looking at some of the nearby casualties in his number range on Soldiers Died. Two of the earliest ones are March 1918 and both have previous units listed - which don't show on their medal rolls or cards, and both are (TF). Another with Silver War Badge enlisted early 1916. Without service or discharge record not possible to say when exactly he enlisted or with which regiment, but it's likely he had a period of home service prior to transfer to the MGC. 

 

Yes I think that all makes sense David.

[Malcolm Cocksedge]

Thanks both of you

[clk]

Hi Malcolm,

 

The 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists for Leicester show him as:

 

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

Regards

Chris

[Malcolm Cocksedge]

Thanks Chris

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Malcolm,

 

The 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists for Leicester show him as:

 

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

Regards

Chris

Useful information.  Battalion was formed from 116th, 117th and 118th Companies of the Machine Gun Corps, who had of course been supporting the three brigades of the 39th Infantry Division.  The first two had been formed at the MGC Depot, Grantham on 1st March 1916, and the latter at Wallon-Capell, near St Omer in France, on 21st March 1916.  This latter company was formed from the MMG section from the 1/1st Cambridgeshire Regiment plus those of the other three battalions; 4th/5th Black Watch, 1/1st Herts, and 1/6th Cheshires.  All of these were TF.

The other two brigades in the 39th Division were formed from war-raised Service battalions, so circumstantial evidence suggests at least, that Cocksedge might well have been in the 118th Company, having previously been in a TF battalion machine gun section.

 

The 116th Brigade and MG company were originally primarily associated with the Royal Sussex Regiment, plus one battalion of the Hampshire Regiment.  The 117th Brigade was half Sherwood Foresters and half Rifles (KRRC and RB).  All were Kitchener raised.

Edited 11 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[davidroake]

hi Malcolm

i hope you have had some success in tracing information about your relation Albert Cocksedge

i write in the hope you can help me. im a serious collector of photos of top notch boxers of the

gloved era and have been looking for a photo of Albert Cocksedge for many years and im hoping

you may have unearthed one during your research. i have a non profit making website to showcase

my collection of photos.....www.fightersFOTOS.co.uk..... if youd care to have a look. if you are able to

help me with an image i will put it on my site fully accredited to you

thank you for reading this

best regards

david roake 

[sadbrewer]

Photo here....courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. 

 

 

[davidroake]

hello sadbrewer and thank you so much for the image of albert cocksedge

may i know your correct name so that i can accredit the photo to you

many thanks again

[sadbrewer]

46 minutes ago, davidroake said:

hello sadbrewer and thank you so much for the image of albert cocksedge

may i know your correct name so that i can accredit the photo to you

many thanks again

 

Hi David...it would be nice to accept the credit personally, but actually it belongs to The British Newspaper Archive....I just found it on their site.

[davidroake]

i would be happy to credit you personally and would do that by saying 'copy of photo courtesy of' rather than 'photo courtesy of'

but otherwise i will watermark it 'fightersFOTOS.co.uk' which is the name of my site if youd care to have a look. i do not sell photos although im happy to let people have copies

the only reason i watermark them is so that other people cannot steal them and sell them as their own thus getting me into trouble. thank you again sadbrewer.

[davidroake]

hi again Malcolm

i have replied to your post already and have now received a photo of Albert Cocksedge from another member

as i said previously i am purely a collector of boxers photos rather than someone who does research.

however, if you want information on your relative's boxing career may i suggest you contact a friend of mine

Miles Templeton at www.boxinghistory.org.uk and it might help to mention my name. Miles will charge you for

the information as he runs his site as a business and has spent hundreds (thousands even) of hours researching

fighters. it will be very thorough

i hope that is of help

best regards

david roake

[TomWW1]

On 10/05/2020 at 17:42, Malcolm Cocksedge said:

Hello Everyone. I would be most grateful for any pointers as to where I should search for more information on Albert V. (Victor)  Cocksedge who was in the Machine Gun Corp. Born in Leicester, he was a renowned boxer, fighting some to the top boxers of his time  before and after the War. I wonder if he boxed for his battalion/ Regiment? The only information I have is his Regimental No 123967 and "Company No " WO 329. I would welcome any information members could give me to get me started. Many Thanks.

How is he related to you? I have just found him on my ancestry tree

[Malcolm Cocksedge]

Thanks for your email.

Albert was my 2nd cousin twice removed  with common ancestors  Henry Cocksedge ( gamekeeper) who married Maria French on 19 March 1822 at Hintlesham, Suffolk. Henry travelled around with Duke of Buccleuch and had children born in Scotland near one the the Dukes estates and he died near Rugby, Warwickshire, near  another of the Dukes estates. Maria appears in the records of the Shakespeare Library - There is an extensive writeup  of a court case -She abandoned her children when Henry died- she was looking for work in Leicester, and was sentenced to Hard labour. May I know how you found Albert - I have an extensive record of his boxing but would love to know more about his MGC record, where he fought, as the MGC were seconded to work within other regiments and there appears to be little about the MGC itself.  

[TomWW1]

16 hours ago, Malcolm Cocksedge said:

Thanks for your email.

Albert was my 2nd cousin twice removed  with common ancestors  Henry Cocksedge ( gamekeeper) who married Maria French on 19 March 1822 at Hintlesham, Suffolk. Henry travelled around with Duke of Buccleuch and had children born in Scotland near one the the Dukes estates and he died near Rugby, Warwickshire, near  another of the Dukes estates. Maria appears in the records of the Shakespeare Library - There is an extensive writeup  of a court case -She abandoned her children when Henry died- she was looking for work in Leicester, and was sentenced to Hard labour. May I know how you found Albert - I have an extensive record of his boxing but would love to know more about his MGC record, where he fought, as the MGC were seconded to work within other regiments and there appears to be little about the MGC itself.  

Hey Malcolm, I’ll message you on here