49th (W.R.) Divisional Train - Silver Salver Signatures mystery

[gareth morris]

Hello Forum Members.

I have come across a Silver Salver with the inscription across the centre of "49th(W.R.) Divisional Train. France. 1915-1918".

Ten signatures have then also been engraved into this item, one man i can't identify fully, and one man I can't identify at all. All the men identified so far have all been officers

Hence the call for help.

The first man is JR Simpson, but in order to proceed further I am searching for his first names. I can find his St/BWM/VM rolls, but I cant find the corresponding MIC for him on Ancestry or the TNA.

The second man is W. Kei???

Thanks, Gareth.

 

Rolls images courtesy of Ancestry  

[Waggoner]

Keir? What a great find!

 

All the best,

 

Gary

[gareth morris]

Hello Gary, Keir or even Keith were my initial thoughts. I thought this fellow would be easy so he was one of the last I looked at. The Army lists for 1918ish don't have a credible match.

Its driving me nuts!

[gareth morris]

Hello All, these are the other officers whose signatures appear on the Salver and whose careers I have traced, it may help with the ID of the two I'm struggling with.

All and any help appreciated, maybe a group photo exists.

 

William Spottiswoode Cameron.

Colin Lawton Reynolds.

Cecil Henry Legg.

Geoffrey Horner Mills O.B.E.

Philip Thomas Joseph Holdsworth.

Philip Brande Slingsby

Frank Broome Foster O.B.E.

Roland Marsham Argles.

 

Thanks

Gareth

 

 

 

 

 

[IPT]

John Rhodes Simpson appears to match the medal roll (288c)

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001419-00770?pid=10747191&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DAyp766%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1262%26gsfn%3DJ*%26gsln%3DSimpson%26cp%3D0%26gskw%3D%22army%20service%20corps%22%26gskw_x%3D1%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3Didw%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D65%26h%3D10747191%26recoff%3D%26fsk%3DMDs0OTs1MA-61--61-%26bsk%3D%26pgoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D66%26queryId%3D1dae71526c1e38f93f1b04d536b5af5c&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=1dae71526c1e38f93f1b04d536b5af5c&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ayp766&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

[gareth morris]

Outstanding, thank-you. IPT.

That just leave W Ke*****

[TEW]

Surnames Cameron & Foster get mentioned in the unit diary, suspect Ke? will be in there somewhere.

 

The diary contains quite a few officer names so I wonder what connects the 10 signatures? No COs on the list?

 

I assume it's hallmarked, date?

TEW

[gareth morris]

Hello TEW.

It is hallmarked Birmingham 1916, maker is Mappin & Webb. So I guess it sat on the shop shelf for a couple of years before purchase and engraving.

As to what connects them, other than the 49th, Im afraid i dont know ??

I will have a proper scan of the war diary as you suggest.

Thanks, Gareth

[gareth morris]

May have not grasped the "No COs on the list?"..

At the time, 1918 ish, as far as I can make out from the Army lists, these men were spread out over the 4 companies, so no overall CO.

Much later on however, a couple achieve Lt Col. & Hon Col of the Divisional Train.

Really hoping there are some photos out there.

Gareth

 

[TEW]

The 49th Div. Train is signed monthly by the CO. I have seen Div. Train diaries that have an HQ then each company has it's own diary. But pretty sure that's not the case with 49th.

Diary is free at present.

TEW

[gareth morris]

I am now about one third of the way through the war diary in an attempt to ID  "W. Kei***?".

I have had one instance so far in Oct 1916, this is a Capt Kier. He also has letters after his name ??.

Any ideas please.

Gareth.

 

Image from Ancestry

[IPT]

Could be Army Veterinary Corps.

[gareth morris]

Hello IPT and thanks for the suggestion.

Would I be correct that in assuming that officers of the Army Veterinary Corps should/would be listed in the Army Lists, same as everyone else??. 

 

[IPT]

There's a 1917 photo of the 49th DT officers, which mentions "Kerr". Of course, it could be transcribed wrongly (The have Milner as Milnes).

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/8ce6e91d-ecf8-4986-9d2c-487120b5ed35

 

Photo thumbnail - https://www.rlcarchive.org/photoRan2?o=021350.jpg&n=1

 

 

Edited 10 May , 2020 by IPT

[IPT]

I've found Captain David Keir in the 49th Division Mobile Veterinary Section war diary. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354654

 

 

 

Medal Card

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A000885-02680?pid=79196&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1262%26h%3D79196%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DAyp841%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ayp841&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.254718413.415445208.1588937694-1335182496.1581853387

[TEW]

Also just seen D Kier who may be the officer mentioned in Train diary but can't see him in Army Lists?

TEW

[gareth morris]

October 1918 Army list, middle column about 2/3 down.

The two of you have nailed it. I must admit I would have been sceptical about accepting the "W" as a D, but the AVC diary signature leaves no doubt.

I have been at this for a week(all signatures), so many, many thanks

Gareth 

[TEW]

Saw another post with a very similar D being seen as a W.

 

 

DAH not WAH.

 

Can I ask if all except Keir are RASC?

 

I see that Argles didn't arrive in France until Oct 1917.

TEW

[gareth morris]

Hello TEW, yes my research into these men show them all to be ASC, later RASC. Excepting as mentioned, Capt Keir, whom I left to last as his signature was easy to decipher, or so I thought at the time!!!.

I still have a few queries remaining, if someone can help.

Geoffrey Horner Mills and Frank Broome Foster appear to have the OBE. I cant find any Gazette entries ????

Gareth. 

 

April 1917 Army List (National Library of Scotland) 

[TEW]

Found Foster's OBE via Wiki. I think Mills is in same edition.

 

I see from the diary that most of the signatures are of the more senior officers that held senior appointments (as a general rule). 

 

Foster & Cameron both had temporary spells as CO of the Train while most names were CO of the individual Coys. 

 

Mills, Argles & Foster had been SO or SSO (not sure what that is!). Foster Divisional SSO, Argles Brigade SO.

 

Not seen an entry for Legg at all, perhaps a late joiner?

 

Plenty of other senior officers with senior positions who didn't get onto the salver.

TEW

 

 

[gareth morris]

Thank-you.

Supply Officer, Senior Supply Officer

[gareth morris]

This is my small write up on CH Legg. Please forgive any errors, delving into the army to this depth is new to me.

Cecil Henry Legg was born in Potter Newton in Leeds, 18^th November 1890 and was baptised 23 days later at home in Reginald Lane’s.

 He is 4 months old in the census of 1890 and is recorded in Scarborough, at his grandmothers house. The enumerator has incorrectly recorded his mother as single and the relationship to the head of the household should have read “daur-in-law”.

In 1901 he is to be found at home, 81 Reginald Terrace, with his parents Henry Preston Legg and Annie Evelyn nee Richardson. He is 10 years old and has an elder sister.

Cecil joined the Army Service Corps and was commissioned a 2^nd Lieutenant with a seniority date of 12^th Dec 1914. The Army list of January 1915 has him with the 49^th (West Riding) Divisional Train.  

Cecil serves with HQ, N^o2 & N^o3 companies as a 2^nd Lieut until June 1917, he then becomes an Adjutant with the rank of acting Captain. Promoted Lieut 1^st July 1917 and retains the acting Captain rank whilst an Adjutant until past the end of the war. By this time he has gained an OBE.

Cecil landed in France 22^nd October 1915 and was entitled to the 1914/15 star, British War & Victory Medals. His Medal Index Card also reveals he was awarded “Emblems”, this is assumed to indicate the Territorial Force Imperial Service Badge. 1920 he is promoted Captain.

He is married in 1923 to Gertrude Marguerite Clarke.

December 1926 find him promoted to Major, and two years later he is presented with the Efficiency Decoration, then in November 1936 promotion to Lt Colonel. The 1937 Army list show he is now commander of RASC 49^th Division.

He appears to continue in this position and eventually becomes Hon.Col. He is retired in 1948, having exceeded the age limit.

It also appears that he passed away in Bristol in 1979.

[TEW]

Impressive background!

Will sound like nit picking now but 'Emblems' refers to a 'Mention in Despatches' printed in the Gazette.

He then had a small oak leaf to wear on the Victory Ribbon.

TEW

[gareth morris]

No, not nit picking. I'm happy to learn.

I did wonder about this.

I made the assumption that I did, because, in the case of JR Simpson his medal card states "emblems", but I could also find additional cards purely for an MID and LG entry. (ancestry)

 

Anyhow, below is what the fuss has been all about, and whats kept me busy for the last few days.

Gareth

 

[IPT]

So it appears that eight out of ten are in the 1917 photo;

 

In the rear, those pictured are: M. Hemery; P.B. Slingsby; M.B. Simenil.

Second row, from rear: P.T. Holdsworth; G.H. Jackson; G. Mitchinson; Hall; Smith.

Third row, from rear: Roberts; R.C. Hall, junior; Powell; Fawcett; G.L. Reynolds; C.H. Legg.

Front row: Mills; Pearson; Cameron; Lieutenant-Colonel Haigh; Milner; Simpson; Keir.